When Kallis played, the 6 best bats played. When he didn't, the 5 best bats played. That is an extra specialist bat. So you can recognize that Kallis added value to the batting unit by bowling, yes?
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Kallis Vs Ambrose
- Thread starter Jumno
- Start date
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
It has nothing to do with the thread, but I saw Andrew Hall mentioned, so here goes.
Had a work meeting day before yesterday with my team and 2 guys from another team in the UK. Their names? James Anderson and Andrew Hall.
Had a work meeting day before yesterday with my team and 2 guys from another team in the UK. Their names? James Anderson and Andrew Hall.
CartyDurham
International Captain
Kallis for me
Arachnodouche
International Captain
Nice, two no-name trundlers in your org.
Tangentially related to something I read in this thread a few pages ago, it's more common and understandable for the bowling skills of a guy who starts life as a batting allrounder like Kallis to slip away over the course of a career, as opposed to the batting skills of a bowling allrounder like Imran. The latter in many cases tend to improve with time because batting is the easier of the two roles to sustain or get better at from a technical/biomechanical pov. Bowling requires consistent dedication. Batting does too of course but in a relative context, the scales are tilted in favor of bowling allrounders getting progressively better.
kyear2
International Coach
Well now we know Subz's real name.
I am sure @h_hurricane will be pleased to know that I'm getting slammed today.
I'll start with the parts I agree with and that makes sense.
Yes he was a tad bit defensive, and yes he was behind Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, but so were 99.8% of all batsmen ever. It's also true that aggression has its advantages and can set up a match, but you don't want everyone on the team going gun ho all the time.
Secondly, yes his slip catching was immense and it was more critical to the team than his bowling. He was sone of the best ever and the skill (as shown again today) is critical to team success.
The rest of it is just nonsense. The role of the 4th bowler is pivotal and critical to team success. Right now Stokes is into his 9th over and just made the break through for his team.
To say the primary guys were better when they need a rest is meaningless and he had a couple match winning spells in-between his normal toils, taking critical wickets along the way. A disproportionate percentage of his wickets were also top order batsmen, meaning he rarely got a chance to feast on the tail.
So ye's, he was 4th in his era, but still 12th / 13th for me overall. He mirrored most of Sachin's career and on tougher home pitches, and wasn't embarrassed in comparison.
His bowling was vital and he took many viral top order wickets and was never a weak link and rarely got taken apart.
His catching was elite ATG and one of the best ever in the pivotal 2nd slip position and was invaluable to his team there.
He was your ATG no. 4, your ATG elite 2nd slip and reliable 5th bowler. What more could have been done.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
That's not how Kallis was used. He was mostly used as a 5th change bowler with short break spells, not a strike bowler or 4th bowler. To call it critical is misleading, it's 10 overs an innings on average.
Kallis played 166 tests, to pick a couple of matchwinning spells from that big a sample is meaningless. Hooper probably has better samples.
Once you factor in his light bowling load and minnows, he comes out as a substandard overrated bowling option, unlike Sobers and Imran who were specialist level.
Botham was a test standard bat averaging 33.
Btw Imran averaged 37. You can't insist that his late career bowling be included in his record and exclude his batting.
He was test standard bat for his time and could play in any teams top six in his era, starting with replacing Logie who played long in the WI.
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Another good article exposing Kallis. Switching my vote to Ambrose now.
www.espncricinfo.com
Can Kallis really be called an allrounder?
Jacques Kallis was among the greatest of batsmen who could bowl, but he doesn't belong to the pantheon of legendary allrounders like Sobers, Imran and Botham
www.espncricinfo.com
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Coronis
International Coach
Just looking at this decade for reference.
Teams are averaging 305.8 runs an innings, at an average of 30.58. With a run rate of 3.24, this works out to an average of 94.2 overs per complete (all out) innings.
Is it really unreasonable to have your 5th bowler bowling 20 overs a match lol
Teams are averaging 305.8 runs an innings, at an average of 30.58. With a run rate of 3.24, this works out to an average of 94.2 overs per complete (all out) innings.
Is it really unreasonable to have your 5th bowler bowling 20 overs a match lol
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
No it was James Anderson and Andrew Hall.
You should know that the author wrote an article about classifying ARs 8 years later and put Kallis as a batting AR: https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...kallis-hadlee-and-jadeja-fit-the-bill-1322675Another good article exposing Kallis. Switching my vote to Ambrose now.
Can Kallis really be called an allrounder?
Jacques Kallis was among the greatest of batsmen who could bowl, but he doesn't belong to the pantheon of legendary allrounders like Sobers, Imran and Botham
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Sure. To be clear, I obviously consider Kallis a batting AR also. That article was just to highlight his bowling load.
To me anyone who is of 5 bowling options and bats in the top 7 regularly is an AR. But some are trying to pretend Kallis is a better bowler than he actually was.
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Yeah, but you should be using more modern articles.
ataraxia
International Coach
lmao what an absolute troll of an article
First, let’s look at his bowling. To me, Kallis’ bowling was of minimal value. For his entire career he was the fifth bowler. He was an excellent fifth bowler, but what was he adding?
Were South Africa really better off giving Kallis 10 overs a day instead of giving a combination of Shaun Pollock, Allan Donald, Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel and Makhaya Ntini three to four more overs a day? They all had better averages than Kallis.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The enigma called Jacques Kallis
He has played almost 100 Tests, averages nearly 57, has scored runs against allcomers in all conditions, and was recently named the ICC's Player of the Year, but Jacques Kallis has hardly got the kind of acclaim you'd expect a batsman to receive after all
www.espncricinfo.com
Here's another useful article written in the midst of Kallis' peak, which goes to the heart of why he was a timid bat:
"For people who have watched him over the years, though, his approach has often been baffling: despite having almost every stroke at his command - to go with a watertight defensive technique - Kallis seldom dominates bowling attacks the way he should. The innings at Sydney was only the latest example of how he seems to bat in a bubble, oblivious to the team cause - less than a couple of months earlier, Kallis plodded his way to 91 off 146 balls in an ODI against India at Mumbai, as South Africa only managed 221 and ended up losing the match.
The stat that best illustrates Kallis's tendency to cruise in second or third gear instead of imposing himself on the game - something that all great batsmen tend to do - is his scoring rate in innings when he gets to hundreds. In his 23 Test centuries, he has only scored at 48 runs per 100 balls, nowhere near the rates of Sachin Tendulkar (59.5), Inzamam-ul-Haq (61.5), Ricky Ponting (63) or Brian Lara (70). Among today's top players, Kallis's rate is closest to Rahul Dravid's (49.75), but in a line-up filled with extravagant strokeplayers, Dravid plays a specific, and much-needed, anchoring role. In a South African line-up loaded with grafters, Kallis, as the best batsman of the side, has often failed to impose himself - and thus his team - upon the opposition. Here's another damning stat: in the 15 centuries he has scored since September 2001, even after he's got a hundred against his name, Kallis only cruises along at a scoring rate of 57.54, that's less than the career strike rates of Ponting and Lara."
This has been my point all along: Kallis was in a reasonably strong lineup of accumulators and his role as main bat called for him to dominate. He didn't and it's to his discredit.
No modern bat this un-dominant deserves to be considered an ATG in this discipline.
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
52 with an SR of 60.
But glad you agree Kallis should be compared with second tier bats.
Coronis
International Coach
So yes it goes to the classic old SR argument and then Dravid gets excused because he had the fortune to bat his entire peak and almost is entire career in one of the strongest lineups… And people think crusades are dead.The enigma called Jacques Kallis
He has played almost 100 Tests, averages nearly 57, has scored runs against allcomers in all conditions, and was recently named the ICC's Player of the Year, but Jacques Kallis has hardly got the kind of acclaim you'd expect a batsman to receive after all
Here's another useful article written in the midst of Kallis' peak, which goes to the heart of why he was a timid bat:
"For people who have watched him over the years, though, his approach has often been baffling: despite having almost every stroke at his command - to go with a watertight defensive technique - Kallis seldom dominates bowling attacks the way he should. The innings at Sydney was only the latest example of how he seems to bat in a bubble, oblivious to the team cause - less than a couple of months earlier, Kallis plodded his way to 91 off 146 balls in an ODI against India at Mumbai, as South Africa only managed 221 and ended up losing the match.
The stat that best illustrates Kallis's tendency to cruise in second or third gear instead of imposing himself on the game - something that all great batsmen tend to do - is his scoring rate in innings when he gets to hundreds. In his 23 Test centuries, he has only scored at 48 runs per 100 balls, nowhere near the rates of Sachin Tendulkar (59.5), Inzamam-ul-Haq (61.5), Ricky Ponting (63) or Brian Lara (70). Among today's top players, Kallis's rate is closest to Rahul Dravid's (49.75), but in a line-up filled with extravagant strokeplayers, Dravid plays a specific, and much-needed, anchoring role. In a South African line-up loaded with grafters, Kallis, as the best batsman of the side, has often failed to impose himself - and thus his team - upon the opposition. Here's another damning stat: in the 15 centuries he has scored since September 2001, even after he's got a hundred against his name, Kallis only cruises along at a scoring rate of 57.54, that's less than the career strike rates of Ponting and Lara."
This has been my point all along: Kallis was in a reasonably strong lineup of accumulators and his role as main bat called for him to dominate. He didn't and it's to his discredit.
No modern bat this un-dominant deserves to be considered an ATG in this discipline.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Except Dravid isn't excused. Nobody rates Dravid with the top bats either. It's just that his go-slow approach is more defensible
kyear2
International Coach
I honestly wonder if you even watch cricket.
How many overs did Stokes bowl yesterday, the WI 5th bowler the day before, both taking critical wickets, Stokes breaking the partnership.
The catches taken and dropped the last two days have framed this match, since the advent of fast bowling, slip catching has been pivotal. And knowing that Kallis has been one of the best who's ever done it is being overlooked as part of his portfolio... Even if you want to disparagingly call him discount Sobers, that's still better than probably anyone else in history. Well Botham and Miller had all 3 skills as well.
Every time Kyear and Subs go on anti Imran and Kallis crusades I end up rating them higher. They post stuff that could be accepted as minor criticisms at a cursory glance, but the criticisms get obliterated by other posters, amd extra strengths get revealed in the process.