Jacques Kallis vs Jack Hobbs

[subshakerz]

Kallis’s rating will be even higher a few decades from now. Future generations will only rate on stats so there’s nothing that can really be done to prevent it.

That is true. But I think you can make a stats-based case that Kallis was overrated too.

This article lays out an excellent case that Kallis' wasn't an allrounder really comparable with any of the other great ARs. Primarily because the way he was used as a bowler was quite marginal to SA's bowling plans. Worth a read.

Can Kallis really be called an allrounder?

Jacques Kallis was among the greatest of batsmen who could bowl, but he doesn't belong to the pantheon of legendary allrounders like Sobers, Imran and Botham

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[subshakerz]

If Kallis at his peak was bowling 12 over an innings, I am sorry, it is nonsense really to compare his secondary discipline with Sobers or Imran. A change bowler is not comparable with an actual 4th seamer/spinner or a proper lower order bat.

As the article itself points out, Kallis' bowling numbers are more comparable with Pollock the bat, but we tend to conflate all pace bowling performances together and ignore load.

 

[ankitj]

Imran's batting is notoriously soft, and some what elevated near the end of his career when he wasn't bowling as much

1. This is not true
2. Even so, it doesn't take away from his greatness. To be able to rediscover yourself and become a test class batsman almost through willpower alone is a story like none other in history of test cricket. It makes him worthy of top 3. No one cares if that makes him ineligible for a fictitious ATG XI.

 

[Coronis]

If Kallis at his peak was bowling 12 over an innings, I am sorry, it is nonsense really to compare his secondary discipline with Sobers or Imran. A change bowler is not comparable with an actual 4th seamer/spinner or a proper lower order bat.

As the article itself points out, Kallis' bowling numbers are more comparable with Pollock the bat, but we tend to conflate all pace bowling performances together and ignore load.

Thats exactly what a 4th seamer should be bowling mate.

 

[kyear2]

1. This is not true
2. Even so, it doesn't take away from his greatness. To be able to rediscover yourself and become a test class batsman almost through willpower alone is a story like none other in history of test cricket. It makes him worthy of top 3. No one cares if that makes him ineligible for a fictitious ATG XI.

1. Yes it was, that's not even an argument

2. No one's trying to take away anything

3. Pretty sure Rhodes, and Sobers along with Worrell, who were all at short periods front line batsmen and bolwers. Worrell and Sobers are various points opening the batting and the bowling.

4. No one says he's not in an argument for no.3, he's not mine, but hey ours are all different. I'll also say, that outside of CW, I've never seen him in the argument for no. 3

5. With regards to the fictitious AT team, it's used in all sports, including cricket, as the ultimate honor. In the NBA and NFL, there's all pro teams, just like the cricket team of the year. And no one is ineligible. What is a greater honor than from all of the players to have ever played the game, to be selected as one of the greatest ever?

In my mind, and I'm well aware than few agree, but if you're the no. 3 player, you make the team, it's a slam dunk. Forget Wisden and Cricinfo (which we shouldn't) but even in ataraxia's poll he's a distant 4th and not that far from 5th. Even here where he's ranked higher than anywhere else, he isn't a slam dunk, if he's making it at all.

I can't be the only person that doesn't make sense to.

If you're not one of the three best bowling options, even when factoring in batting, and even ranked 8th in our latest rankings, how are you 3rd overall.

This isn't anti anyone, because Kallis isn't top 3 either

 

[capt_Luffy]

1. Yes it was, that's not even an argument

2. No one's trying to take away anything

3. Pretty sure Rhodes, and Sobers along with Worrell, who were all at short periods front line batsmen and bolwers. Worrell and Sobers are various points opening the batting and the bowling.

4. No one says he's not in an argument for no.3, he's not mine, but hey ours are all different. I'll also say, that outside of CW, I've never seen him in the argument for no. 3

5. With regards to the fictitious AT team, it's used in all sports, including cricket, as the ultimate honor. In the NBA and NFL, there's all pro teams, just like the cricket team of the year. And no one is ineligible. What is a greater honor than from all of the players to have ever played the game, to be selected as one of the greatest ever?

In my mind, and I'm well aware than few agree, but if you're the no. 3 player, you make the team, it's a slam dunk. Forget Wisden and Cricinfo (which we shouldn't) but even in ataraxia's poll he's a distant 4th and not that far from 5th. Even here where he's ranked higher than anywhere else, he isn't a slam dunk, if he's making it at all.

I can't be the only person that doesn't make sense to.

If you're not one of the three best bowling options, even when factoring in batting, and even ranked 8th in our latest rankings, how are you 3rd overall.

This isn't anti anyone, because Kallis isn't top 3 either

You mentioned ataraxia's poll, but in mine, the most recent one, he was 3rd very comfortably. And don't know about NBA and NFL and neither care about them, but hardly anyone gives two cents if someone makes an ATXI in Football. It's very reasonable to make one without Pele and Maradona, doesn't mean they aren't contenders for GoAT.

 

[subshakerz]

Thats exactly what a 4th seamer should be bowling mate.

20 overs a game is well below even a 4th seamer.

 

[subshakerz]

You mentioned ataraxia's poll, but in mine, the most recent one, he was 3rd very comfortably. And don't know about NBA and NFL and neither care about them, but hardly anyone gives two cents if someone makes an ATXI in Football. It's very reasonable to make one without Pele and Maradona, doesn't mean they aren't contenders for GoAT.

There isn't a point arguing with him too much on this. He picks and chooses polls he likes, picks and chooses ATG XIs he likes (avoiding their selection criteria), and picks and chooses cricket lists he likes.

 

[kyear2]

You mentioned ataraxia's poll, but in mine, the most recent one, he was 3rd very comfortably. And don't know about NBA and NFL and neither care about them, but hardly anyone gives two cents if someone makes an ATXI in Football. It's very reasonable to make one without Pele and Maradona, doesn't mean they aren't contenders for GoAT.

Which poll?

 

[kyear2]

There isn't a point arguing with him too much on this. He picks and chooses polls he likes, picks and chooses ATG XIs he likes (avoiding their selection criteria), and picks and chooses cricket lists he likes.

I chose the only two that matters. There was no picking and choosing.

Wisden's and Cricinfo's.

Which one compares to those I would love to be told, sincerely...

 

[OverratedSanity]

Which poll?

You know, the one ranking cricketers all time. Rather than ataraxia's poll which was about pace bowling trios, which is a different thing and also a format where votes can sometimes be split and won't provide an accurate picture of their actual ranking relative to each other.

I think you know all of this and are also quite aware that imran is a consensus number 3 cricketer on CW but want to deny it for some reason.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I chose the only two that matters. There was no picking and choosing.

Wisden's and Cricinfo's.

Wasim Akram made both XIs over Mcgrath and hadlee. Trust you think he's a superior cricketer to both.

In fact Mcgrath/Hadlee didn't even even make Cricinfo's second xi lol

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wasim Akram made both XIs over Mcgrath and hadlee. Trust you think he's a superior cricketer to both.

In fact Mcgrath/Hadlee didn't even even make Cricinfo's second xi lol

McGrath didn't even made third XI. But you remember who made? Abdul Qadir......

 

[subshakerz]

I chose the only two that matters. There was no picking and choosing.

Wisden's and Cricinfo's.

Which one compares to those I would love to be told, sincerely...

Oh yesss, those hallowed, sacred ATG XIs by Wisden and Cricinfo. Who clearly possess more knowledge than any cricket pundit ever. Where Cricinfo mentioned they only have one AR spot.

Then you bring up CW polls. Except the ones Imran is clear no3.

Then you ignore top ten list by Wisden and ESPN and other, because you are totally inconsistent.

It's painfully obvious you don't have any criteria for how you judge cricketers and just make it up on the fly.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Oh yesss, those hallowed, sacred ATG XIs by Wisden and Cricinfo. Who clearly possess more knowledge than any cricket pundit ever. Where Cricinfo mentioned they only have one AR spot.

Then you bring up CW polls. Except the ones Imran is clear no3.

It's hilarious how he switches up between whether cricinfo/wisden or CW opinion is important depending on the player involved. Wilfully and blatantly dishonest but thinks he's being sneaky.

 

[subshakerz]

It's hilarious how he switches up between whether cricinfo/wisden or CW opinion is important depending on the player involved. Wilfully and blatantly dishonest but thinks he's being sneaky.

It is dishonest. But it is also not particularly clever. When you construct an argument to just exclude one player (Imran), that same argument goes against all the other favorites you rate so highly (McGrath, etc.)

 

[Coronis]

20 overs a game is well below even a 4th seamer.

Please show me all these 4th seamers who are bowling significantly more overs than that in a 4 pace 1 spin attack.

 

[subshakerz]

Please show me all these 4th seamers who are bowling significantly more overs than that in a 4 pace 1 spin attack.

Offhand I can think of Kaspa and Bichel and they average around 30 overs a game to Kallis' 20.

The load difference then between a change bowler like Kallis and a 4th seamer is roughly that of a 4th seamer and a frontline strike bowler.

 

[Coronis]

Offhand I can think of Kaspa and Bichel and they average around 30 overs a game to Kallis' 20.

The load difference then between a change bowler like Kallis and a 4th seamer is roughly that of a 4th seamer and a frontline strike bowler.

And when they were playing as 4th seamers (the minority of their games) they were averaging 13-14 overs a game mate.

 

[subshakerz]

And when they were playing as 4th seamers (the minority of their games) they were averaging 13-14 overs a game mate.

13 overs a game? How many games were they 4th seamer?