Wasim Akram among his peers

[kyear2]

And why does this assume that slip fielders cannot be trained for the job? Fielding is not like batting or bowling. Good systems like those of Aus or SA or Eng will always train for fielding from the school level. A minimum standard of fielding will always be there which is what really matters in 95% of the cases. Which is not the case for batting or bowling. A minimum standard of batting or bowling will get one nowhere, but a minimum fielding standard will get you in if your batting or bowling are special. It is ridiculous to somehow equate fielding to batting or bowling. Worst situation, you can "hide" your awful fielder to positions where there are not many catches coming

Also, It's not like anybody is picked in the side for their slip fielding. I can't recall Mark Waugh being in the slips from day 1. He was always a good fielder though and has taken blinders in all sorts of positions, from slips, to silly mid off, to midwicket. He was a great catcher and could take excellent catches anywhere. Somehow "elite" slip fielding is being positioned as if its some extra skill that otherwise elite fielders can't be trained for.

If this mindset is the pervasive one, that would explain why Pakistan's fielding never improved. Who would have thought it, just practice harder.

It's a specialist skill and position, and yes as was discussed in multiple threads, players were either picked or kept places because of their slip fielding. Bobby Simpson made the Australian team because of it, similarly with Sharpe, Sobers kept his place in the team during the initial days and Hooper through the lean ones.

But on that note though, this assumes that lower order batsmen can be trained for the job. McGrath improved his batting near the end of his career and improved his average a bit. Marshall, Warne all could just spend a little extra time in the nets and get to where they are more viable.

Interesting though, thanks.

It's ridiculous to think that people still believe you can just stick anyone in there with a bit of training and you get the same result. Though that would explain the 90's and the last series. Guys like Waugh, Kallis, Sobers, Ponting, Hammond, Simpson, Hooper, Richardson were worth their weight in gold to their teams, and we're much, much more valuable and critical than batting deep for their teams.

But keep looking at stats and not traits, trends and results.

 

[kyear2]

Actually if you don't give an idea how impactful it is, then it is a believe it or not.

Again, you are the poster who was trying to exchange slip catches for runs, you speculate on every single topic yet you hide when asked to speculate about slip catches


I did acknowledge it for Wasim. And yes, I would not pick a team with a poor slip unless the bowling/batting difference is too much.

 

[Coronis]

If this mindset is the pervasive one, that would explain why Pakistan's fielding never improved. Who would have thought it, just practice harder.

It's a specialist skill and position, and yes as was discussed in multiple threads, players were either picked or kept places because of their slip fielding. Bobby Simpson made the Australian team because of it, similarly with Sharpe, Sobers kept his place in the team during the initial days and Hooper through the lean ones.

But on that note though, this assumes that lower order batsmen can be trained for the job. McGrath improved his batting near the end of his career and improved his average a bit. Marshall, Warne all could just spend a little extra time in the nets and get to where they are more viable.

Interesting though, thanks.

It's ridiculous to think that people still believe you can just stick anyone in there with a bit of training and you get the same result. Though that would explain the 90's and the last series. Guys like Waugh, Kallis, Sobers, Ponting, Hammond, Simpson, Hooper, Richardson were worth their weight in gold to their teams, and we're much, much more valuable and critical than batting deep for their teams.

But keep looking at stats and not traits, trends and results.

Kallis > Sobers confirmed by the man himself

 

[smash84]

If this mindset is the pervasive one, that would explain why Pakistan's fielding never improved. Who would have thought it, just practice harder.

It's a specialist skill and position, and yes as was discussed in multiple threads, players were either picked or kept places because of their slip fielding. Bobby Simpson made the Australian team because of it, similarly with Sharpe, Sobers kept his place in the team during the initial days and Hooper through the lean ones.

But on that note though, this assumes that lower order batsmen can be trained for the job. McGrath improved his batting near the end of his career and improved his average a bit. Marshall, Warne all could just spend a little extra time in the nets and get to where they are more viable.

Interesting though, thanks.

It's ridiculous to think that people still believe you can just stick anyone in there with a bit of training and you get the same result. Though that would explain the 90's and the last series. Guys like Waugh, Kallis, Sobers, Ponting, Hammond, Simpson, Hooper, Richardson were worth their weight in gold to their teams, and we're much, much more valuable and critical than batting deep for their teams.

But keep looking at stats and not traits, trends and results.

If this is the mindset, and pervasive one, I can imagine a once GOAT team barely keeping its test status. People keep getting picked for their specialist fielding rather than batting or bowling.

And you clown, that's exactly the opposite to my point. Tailenders cannot really be trained for the job. At least in any significant way. McGrath improved his batting near the end of the career is a worse point than saying Ambrose was ATG in South Africa because he got 13 wickets in 4 matches there.

 

[subshakerz]

If this is the mindset, and pervasive one, I can imagine a once GOAT team barely keeping its test status. People keep getting picked for their specialist fielding rather than batting or bowling.

And you clown, that's exactly the opposite to my point. Tailenders cannot really be trained for the job. At least in any significant way. McGrath improved his batting near the end of the career is a worse point than sayung Ambrose's ATG series I. South Africa with 13 wickets in 4 matches.

Lol its not a mindset issue in Pakistan, its an institutional issue. Concrete slab grounds arent conducive to diving. You need a fielding culture that is encouraged from a young age.

 

[smash84]

Lol its not a mindset issue in Pakistan, its an institutional issue. Concrete slab grounds arent conducive to diving. You need a fielding culture that is encouraged from a young age.

Trust him to ignore this part of my comment completely and start addressing something totally tangential because he won't admit he's wrong.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lol its not a mindset issue in Pakistan, its an institutional issue. Concrete slab grounds arent conducive to diving. You need a fielding culture that is encouraged from a young age.

Wasim should've lobbied to improve the condition of pakistani grounds. What a loser.

 

[subshakerz]

Wasim should've lobbied to improve the condition of pakistani grounds. What a loser.

It's hard to get a bad fielder to become a good one later in their career. Much of it is instincts honed over time from early career.

 

[Coronis]

Wasim should've lobbied to improve the condition of pakistani grounds. What a loser.

Should’ve been Imran’s first task as PM

 

[honestbharani]

Should’ve been Imran’s first task as PM

Should have been his first task after the WC win. The cancer institute could have waited.

 

[subshakerz]

 

[subshakerz]

I think a better cordon is a tremendous boost to a bowlers' confidence.

 

[kyear2]

Some of the clownish comment above does prove a couple things.

The forum has largely gone from arguing points to arguing against personalities, and towards nationalistic leanings.

Lol its not a mindset issue in Pakistan, its an institutional issue. Concrete slab grounds arent conducive to diving. You need a fielding culture that is encouraged from a young age.

That's a valid point, doesn't cover up the horrible post Smali wrote on the previous page which you supported. Initially the argument in the Caribbean was made as well for the hard, drier outfields rather than the lush ones in England and Australia, but a culture was established over time and improvements were made.

To state that anyone could be a great fielder, but somehow lower order batting is an exclusive art, considering that most of them are still sub par test batsmen, is hilarious.

To also state that no one has ever been selected for their fielding was also hilariously wrong, but wouldn't hear anyone conceded there either.

With regards to the sarcastic comments above from HB, Coronis, ORS and Smali, though some might be in jest, don't know what it was to achieve otherwise.

If you have an institutional issue for decades how about at least trying to correct it, not blaming any one person, especially not coming from this part of the world, but it's not the hardest thing to work on...

With regards to Smali, apparently actively have an issue with me , and you'll be jumping on every post I make because I have pointed out that Imran was a ball tamperer and fitted from home umpiring. Somehow you also believe it's my life goal to disparage him, and that I have an issue with him. On the contrary, I think he was an amazing cricketer, not anywhere near top 3, but definitely top tier and one of the greatest players ever. The point that you would actually dislike another person because of a cricket belief speaks more to you than me. Coronis thinks Viv is the 15th best batsman of all time, and while I'll rib him about it for time to time, would take a special kind of person to dislike him for it, I mean he is an agitator and likes to stir up ****, but hey.

 

[kyear2]

I think a better cordon is a tremendous boost to a bowlers' confidence.

What I'll say is that I found it surprising that it's something half the forum doesn't place value in. I've said that it probably is a regional thing, depending on what you saw growing up, but the game is so widely available to be viewed, both present and past, and the traits of success so very obviously, that I don't understand the resistance.
I think I kinda do, but hope that isn't it, because it would be kinda silly.

 

[subshakerz]

What I'll say is that I found it surprising that it's something half the forum doesn't place value in. I've said that it probably is a regional thing, depending on what you saw growing up, but the game is so widely available to be views, and the traits of success so very obviously, that I don't understand the resistance.
I think I kinda do, but hope that isn't it, because it would be kinda silly.

Well, the problem is we think too often of bowlers as automatons who simply bowl based on the stats on our screens. The reality is that they are a cog in an entire team.

I rethink back to my earlier watching days. Can't tell you how often Wasim would be in the middle of an excellent new ball spell, beating the bat twice an over, before suddenly getting an edge and having it shelled. His shoulders sag. Then the very next ball is a loose delivery outside off that gets driven for four.

I mean, can you blame Wasim? He knows that the opposition knows that surviving the 2Ws opening spell is almost half the game. Hard to stay focused with that much pressure.

Whereas I recall McGrath occasionally facing stiff resistance by English or SA batters who are trying to see him off. You just think that they might be back in the game. Then suddenly, almost with a sense of expectation,there is a blinder taken off an edge and you can see the self-belief returning to his face, the Aussies almost feeling that they are the House that always wins.

Makes me rethink how to rate these great pacers frankly.

 

[kyear2]

Well, the problem is we think too often of bowlers as automatons who simply bowl based on the stats on our screens. The reality is that they are a cog in an entire team.

I rethink back to my earlier watching days. Can't tell you how often Wasim would be in the middle of an excellent new ball spell, beating the bat twice an over, before suddenly getting an edge and having it shelled. His shoulders sag. Then the very next ball is a loose delivery outside off that gets driven for four.

I mean, can you blame Wasim? He knows that the opposition knows that surviving the 2Ws opening spell is almost half the game. Hard to stay focused with that much pressure.

Whereas I recall McGrath occasionally facing stiff resistance by English or SA batters who are trying to see him off. You just think that they might be back in the game. Then suddenly, almost with a sense of expectation,there is a blunder taken off an edge and you can see the self-belief returning to his face, the Aussies almost feeling that they are the House that always wins.

Makes me rethink how to rate these great pacers frankly.

And yes you will use this on your endless quest to have bowlers arranged as you see them, but I don't care at this point...

This belief that bowlers are so much more important, when it's a total team effort. One of the two greatest teams ever didn't have the best bowling attack, they did have one of the best, if not the best and most dominating batting lineups ever. Don't get me wrong, McGrath was the key and made it work, but not alone. They, like the WI juggernaut and the following successful SA team to the Australian unit, had three of the best cordons ever.

So yeah, part of it is about confidence, confidence to pitch up the ball and keep going for the edge, confidence that you have a batting line up to cover you etc etc.

None of this is new.

So yeah, I will be derided, but yeah, a Ponting (ATG bat and slip) for me is just as an important player and dual threat as the all rounders that are always mentioned.

And yes, re your final statement, I'm sure you will, and I'm sure we will argue about it.

Anyways, rant over and time for bed.

 

[subshakerz]

And yes you will use this on your endless quest to have bowlers arranged as you see them, but I don't care at this point...

This belief that bowlers are so much more important, when it's a total team effort. One of the two greatest teams ever didn't have the best bowling attack, they did have one of the best, if not the best and most dominating batting lineups ever. Don't get me wrong, McGrath was the key and made it work, but not alone. They, like the WI juggernaut and the following successful SA team to the Australian unit, had three of the best cordons ever.

So yeah, part of it is about confidence, confidence to pitch up the ball and keep going for the edge, confidence that you have a batting line up to cover you etc etc.

None of this is new.

So yeah, I will be derided, but yeah, a Ponting (ATG bat and slip) for me is just as an important player and dual threat as the all rounders that are always mentioned.

And yes, re your final statement, I'm sure you will, and I'm sure we will argue about it.

Anyways, rant over and time for bed.

Lol you agreed with most of what I said tho, but couldn't take the last point. ok then, good night.

 

[ankitj]

@subshakerz and @kyear2 not fully clear what you guys are saying. Can you explain in greater detail? Thanks.

 

[Coronis]

Coronis thinks Viv is the 15th best batsman of all time, and while I'll rib him about it for time to time, would take a special kind of person to dislike him for it,

dw there’s plenty of other reasons to dislike me

 

[trundler]

@subshakerz and @kyear2 not fully clear what you guys are saying. Can you explain in greater detail? Thanks.

Thanks for making me realise what a saviour the ignore button is.