Ravichandran Ashwin vs Jim Laker

[Xix2565]

Normally you are right except Ashwin has built his failed record in SENA over something like 10-11 tours. That's not excusable.

Laker was so bad he couldn't even get 10-11 tours by that logic. Again, bad faith arguments don't work.

 

[Coronis]

He was outright horrible in SA with context. And judging spinners 1 O 1 with average is a horrible process, especially in less helpful places. Kumble is the best touring spinner in Australia, he averages 34 there.

Ashwin is faaar from far worse in SA. By context, I will take Ashwin's record there over Laker's. If you think Ashwin in England=Laker in SA, you're just going purely by averages. And definitely Ashwin didn't played much weaker batting lineups, that just falls. If you're talking about WI, then the reverse is truer for SA.

Laker is a bigger spin track bully, who rallished in wet pitches.

When did this happen? And he averages 37, not 34.

 

[subshakerz]

And ignore all the "excuses", aka the good Australia and English tours??

In Aus they didnt make up for the horror shows. England is a dud record anyways. SA is a disgrace. Thankfully he didn't play more in NZ.

 

[capt_Luffy]

When did this happen? And he averages 37, not 34.

When he took 24 wickets in 3 matches in the flatest Aussie pitches in 2004. The second place averaged 37 and had 16 wickets in 4 matches. Followed that up with another great tour.

 

[Xix2565]

Remind me again why we are going so far to try and pretty up an English HTB spinner who didn't have to suffer on greentops where seamers take wickets for fun? People might not like the insinuations but they'll keep being made when the standards heavily shift for other types of players.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In Aus they didnt make up for the horror shows. England is a dud record anyways. SA is a disgrace. Thankfully he didn't play more in NZ.

When comparing with a spinner with 4 matches Australia, not bad. His England record is better than (or atleast equal) to Laker in WI, and Laker himself was horrible in SA. Ashwin also was great in WI and SL.

 

[Coronis]

When he took 24 wickets in 3 matches in the flatest Aussie pitches in 2004. The second place averaged 37 and had 16 wickets in 4 matches. Followed that up with another great tour.

And also had some horrible tours. Wouldn’t even call him the best Indian spinner to tour Australia.

 

[subshakerz]

When comparing with a spinner with 4 matches Australia, not bad. His England record is better than (or atleast equal) to Laker in WI, and Laker himself was horrible in SA. Ashwin also was great in WI and SL.

We just fundamentally disagree man on Aus and WI/Eng. That's the crux of our debate.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And also had some horrible tours. Wouldn’t even call him the best Indian spinner to tour Australia.

His first 3 matches were horrible. But in the next 7 he had 44 wickets. That's pretty good. At least 2004 is the best series by a spinner in Australia for me.

 

[ma1978]

Laker and Ashwin are similar in many ways. Ashwin just has a lot larger body of work and played in a more professional era, which biases towards him.

 

[Xix2565]

We just fundamentally disagree man on Aus and WI/Eng. That's the crux of our debate.

No, the crux of the debate is that you let Laker off for things you wouldn't let Ambrose off for. Only difference is that one of them is compared to your favourites and so you go all in while one of them is compared to someone you don't care for, so you do all you can to talk them up. There are other insinuations to be made but this seems a decent start.

 

[Xix2565]

I still haven't seen a reasonable response to the point on averages in home conditions I made. Apparently it's too broad for the simplest minds to grasp? Too broad to figure out that one person couldn't bully hard enough even when conditions were in their favour more often than not compared to the other person who had more difficult conditions but still was good enough to be the better bully? Then there's pretending that one person dodging games is fine even though the reason for that is what is used to underrate the other person. Or just avoiding looking at the records and noting the sheer volume and variety of teams being bullied. And so on.

 

[subshakerz]

No, the crux of the debate is that you let Laker off for things you wouldn't let Ambrose off for. Only difference is that one of them is compared to your favourites and so you go all in while one of them is compared to someone you don't care for, so you do all you can to talk them up.

Because he isn't a modern era cricketer and is being compared to a proven failure. Apples and oranges.

I can just say to please you Laker didn't play enough tests, which seems an odd standard for someone from the 1950s.

There are other insinuations to be made but this seems a decent start.

Make them. Don't be shy about it.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Because he isn't a modern era cricketer and is being compared to a proven failure. Apples and oranges.

I can just say to please you Laker didn't play enough tests, which seems an odd standard for someone from the 1950s.


Make them. Don't be shy about it.

You definitely have a big masochistic side.....

 

[subshakerz]

You definitely have a big masochistic side.....

I've heard it all, y'know...

 

[Xix2565]

Because he isn't a modern era cricketer and is being compared to a proven failure. Apples and oranges.

I can just say to please you Laker didn't play enough tests, which seems an odd standard for someone from the 1950s.


Make them. Don't be shy about it.

Being premodern just means he's a bigger failure in general then. He sucks in comparison despite not having the best competition. The game hasn't changed that much, just the player talent pool and Ashwin has bossed it over a better bunch of cricketers than Laker managed.

It's not pleasing for you lie and deflect arguments. I would like you to be honest about why you want to misinterpret records.

Fine, Laker's only being praised for being English vs Ashwin who's Indian. Wouldn't be as much posts from you if this was someone else vs Ashwin/Laker.

 

[subshakerz]

Being premodern just means he's a bigger failure in general then. He sucks in comparison despite not having the best competition. The game hasn't changed that much, just the player talent pool and Ashwin has bossed it over a better bunch of cricketers than Laker managed.

It's not pleasing for you lie and deflect arguments. I would like you to be honest about why you want to misinterpret records.

Fine, Laker's only being praised for being English vs Ashwin who's Indian. Wouldn't be as much posts from you if this was someone else vs Ashwin/Laker.

Dude, Ashwin averages 50 in SA, 42 in Aus. He takes 2 wickets a game in England. He has played 25 games in SENA without a single fifer.

Laker didn't have some great record away, but it was better than these sub-par returns that you are trying to put a lipstick on a pig on.

There is no misinterpretation. Ashwin just outright sucks in SENA and thats why I'm not voting for him.

 

[Xix2565]

Dude, Ashwin averages 50 in SA, 42 in Aus. He takes 2 wickets a game in England. He has played 25 games in SENA without a single fifer.

Laker didn't have some great record away, but it was better than these sub-par returns that you are trying to put a lipstick on a pig on.

There is no misinterpretation. Ashwin just outright sucks in SENA and thats why I'm not voting for him.

I don't buy this. You've defended far worse records than this, it can't be based on analysis anymore.

Laker didn't even have a record away from home worth debating in comparison. It's like thinking a rotten carcass is comparable to a live pig.

This is misinterpretation. You can stop lying about it anytime soon.

 

[CartyDurham]

Dude, Ashwin averages 50 in SA, 42 in Aus. He takes 2 wickets a game in England. He has played 25 games in SENA without a single fifer.

Laker didn't have some great record away, but it was better than these sub-par returns that you are trying to put a lipstick on a pig on.

There is no misinterpretation. Ashwin just outright sucks in SENA and thats why I'm not voting for him.

What is SENA?

 

[capt_Luffy]

What is SENA?

South Africa, England, New Zealand, Australia.