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Wasim Akram among his peers

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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
48 for visiting quicks is brutal. This is a country that is supposed to be kinder to pace than spin as well.
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Because they are facing the greatest batting lineup in cricket history, maybe that has something to do with it.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
subshakerz said:
Yes and I can counter that Wasim had high quality back to back series against a top Aus team probably better than any lineup McGrath faced. Or an epic 21 wickets @14 against a top WI side.

But it's besides the point. This started because @TheJediBrah said that Wasim's swing razzle and dazzle was the reason he was rated ahead, and I merely wanted to show at his peak he could perform well enough to justify such a rating, so it's not this crazy opinion.
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Ya Wasim is easily ATG and in my top 11 bowlers or so. I just Mcgrath was better rounded in his peak, and his feat of averaging sub 20 in his peak and that 2001 series against Ind, with Tendulkar, VVS, Dravid, Ganguly on SC pitches is also amazing. But Wasim in his peak was amazing as well, and what especially is special is his WPM at peak
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
smash84 said:
That has a lot to do with an ATG batting lineup as well.

That batting was going everywhere and batting the opposition out of the match.

Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Waugh twins, Martyn, Gilchrist, Warne, Gillespie, Lee. Only McGrath was a bunny otherwise the batting lineup was such that just its sight would demoralize the opposition. Just one quality bat coming after the other.
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I'm just noting how badly visitors did. Junk bowlers at the time who mostly relied on swing, ATG batting, pitches, and a team strong enough that you seldom get to bowl at the tail are all factors.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
Also Wasim faces strong Aussie lineups yes but not the 2000s level of strong . Especially in 1989-90, when you has a struggling Border, Waugh. The main threat was Taylor
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Ya Wasim is easily ATG and in my top 11 bowlers or so. I just Mcgrath was better rounded in his peak, and his feat of averaging sub 20 in his peak and that 2001 series against Ind, with Tendulkar, VVS, Dravid, Ganguly on SC pitches is also amazing. But Wasim in his peak was amazing as well, and what especially is special is his WPM at peak
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Which was ?
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
I'm just noting how badly visitors did. Junk bowlers at the time who mostly relied on swing, ATG batting, pitches, and a team strong enough that you seldom get to bowl at the tail are all factors.
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You also have to factor in quality of bowlers. You didn't have ATG pacers in their prime touring Aus in the 2000s until Steyn came.

So it's really Aus ATG lineup + poorer bowlers that accounts for higher touring averages than just the pitches themselves.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
HouHsiaoHsien said:
5. Pretty brilliant, not Marshall level obviously
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I aways believe these has to be something behind peer / media ratings. Wasim's as high as anyone's .

I think his odi exploits played a bit into his Wisden and Cricinfo selections, but still
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Guys like Lara rates him above everyone.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
kyear2 said:
I aways believe these has to be something behind peer / media ratings. Wasim's as high as anyone's .

I think his odi exploits played a bit into his Wisden and Cricinfo selections, but still
...
Guys like Lara rates him above everyone.
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Agreed. However I would Wasim’s bowling easily better than like Kallis’ batting
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
subshakerz said:
You also have to factor in quality of bowlers. You didn't have ATG pacers in their prime touring Aus in the 2000s until Steyn came.

So it's really Aus ATG lineup + poorer bowlers that accounts for higher touring averages than just the pitches themselves.
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I did. In the post you are responding to.
 
The_CricketUmpire

The_CricketUmpire

U19 Captain
subshakerz said:
The point is that it is touch and go between peak Wasim and McGrath, so claiming someone rating Wasim ahead is just based on style is nonsense.
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Exactly.

We will all have our own methods when assessing & ranking bowlers. For me the methods I use when assessing bowlers are:

1. Career stats
Simply have to use stats as some sort of reference point indicator. Stats are important, not the be all & end all but stats can't be ignored. As individuals it will depend on how far we include stats in our decision making when ranking bowlers.

2. What a bowler does with the ball.
This is a big one for me and the reason why I rate Wasim Akram as a better bowler then McGrath. Wasim simply made the ball talk.....new ball or old ball and it was all in his wrist positioning at release point. How I wish more fast bowlers fine-tuned this art. Wasim made the ball talk more than McGrath, in my opinion.

So for me, in my opinion, Wasim Akram was a better bowler then McGrath. Both are legends, both are All Time Greats, for me....Wasim is ahead.

I respect and understand that people on here will have McGrath ahead of Wasim & that's fine, I get it....McGrath was an awesome fast bowler and those that have McGrath ahead of Wasim - they are entitled to make that assessment and have an opinion, as do I too.
 
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S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
I'm just noting how badly visitors did. Junk bowlers at the time who mostly relied on swing, ATG batting, pitches, and a team strong enough that you seldom get to bowl at the tail are all factors.
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I actually think this has more to do with McGrath's 'flat pitch era' success than any extra mastery over conditions. Pitches flattened but it wasn't some radically new conditions McGrath to reinvent his game. This point get overplayed to death on this board.

We have all seen bowlers get wickets in batting friendly conditions simply because their opposition is either drained and demoralized.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
subshakerz said:
You haven't countered any of my objections to your 'flat pitch stats'.

Did McGrath play better bats? Debatable. Wasim played WI as a number one side and Aus as a number one side. McGrath never played his own strongest lineup.

Definitely not more batting friendly pitches. That's just a sad point that shows you don't know how flat Pak pitches were.

Now you walk back 'much more impressive' by saying McGrath may have been 'just as good' in his peak. Maybe you posted those stats too fast without thinking.

The whole debate btw is that I concede McGrath is better overall but Wasim was better in his peak. You don't seem to have any real opinions to bring to the table that aren't 100 percent stats based, and misued ones too.
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Since you asked so nicely. We have Walsh, Pollock, Donald, Akhtar all touring Australia at their peaks (Donald maybe what, 11 months after his ended) and all being thoroughly destroyed.

Did McGrath play better bats in the 2000’s? Lemme think.. Tendulkar, Lara, Kallis, Dravid, Sehwag, Smith, Laxman, Pietersen, Younis, Chanders, MoYo, just off the top of my head yeah I think that beats what Wasim faced in the 90’s.
 
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