Wow, how nice, getting points for having the best team at the time.
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Hadlee Vs Viv Richards
- Thread starter Jumno
- Start date
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I need to expand upon that more at some point.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
If your argument is that any worldclass fast bowler is instantly more valuable than any worldclass bat, then just say so and don't bring team strength into it.
No, you made a claim that he is less consistent compared to other top tier bats.
Yet you are dodging bringing up the other bats records. And I know why, because they also have so-called holes that you want to ignore. Sobers' for example averages even less than Viv against and in Australia.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
His aging team wasnt streets ahead of the others like with Lloyd and faced legitimately competitive threats home and away, yet he remained unbeaten whereas he could have easily lost a series or two here or there. Viv himself pulled them out of the fire often when their reign was in threat.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I think about the 80s it should also be noted that not only WI was among the truly greatest, Australia, England and India were pretty ****. Pakistan was the next best team, had chances to win at home which they failed to cash in but managed to draw series in WI, a pretty impressive feat; and WI didn't toured NZ, the next best home team.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Well Aus by the last 80s were a pretty formidable team again.
Pak under Imran were a strong team. Ind and NZ were reasonably strong teams at home.
So for an aging WI side under Viv to not drop a series against all of them and stay no.1 to me is a credible achievement.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
And he drew away series in Pakistan, India and New Zealand, didn't won them. Definitely impressive, but given he literally had the bowling from heaven (mind you, not an aging one necessarily), not super impressive imo.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yes and no. In 86 and 88 against Pak it was pretty much Marshall and Walsh only (Ambrose just debuted in the latter). Against India in 88 it was Walsh only and Patterson. In NZ, Marshall was playing injured that series from what I recall. The rest of the series were all won.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Calling Marshall and Walsh "only" is such an understatement..... And 88 India was from the awkward time when Sunny retired and Sachin didn't came still, and the bowling was ****. India were very lucky to draw that series off a miracle performance by Hirwani.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Early career Walsh was basically around young Wasim level then, well short of Holding and Garner.
India still had some tough pitches I recall then. Viv bailed out WI with a great ton in the first test.
Again, wider point is that WI were certainly weakened enough to lose a series here or there. They didn't and I give some credit to that to Viv. He certainly had it tougher than Lloyd in this regard.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Do you rate Viv the captain close to Lloyd??
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yes. Lloyd is better by virtue of building the side. Neither were some tactical geniuses tho
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Then I don't think this conversation has any merit. Lloyd is a borderline Top 10 captain of All Time for me, Viv will be lucky to crack top 50.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
We can disagree on Lloyd being a great captain but we agree Viv is still a good captain
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I mean, I don't give much points to "good captains".
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I do. It's quite a bit of impact as a secondary discipline.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Nahhh..... I only give so high points to ATG captains like Worrell, Benaud, Imran, Ranatunga, Bradman, etc. Below that level, captaincy is hardly a tertiary skill to me, much much below Fielding.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I mean that is fine. To me a good captain and an average/bad captain is the difference between a close series lost or drawn/won. A great captain gives a whole new slew of results. I think that has more impact than fielding unless the fielding is elite.
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smash84
The Tiger King
How exactly is Viv a good captain?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I've explained in the previous pages. Kept the WI no.1 with more competitive teams and an aging side.