kyear2
International Coach
Exactly
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How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I never said McGrath had an unfair advantage. But he didn't build up the Aus slip cordon. He walked into a side with one. So he was lucky. Wasim was not.
Okay but I don't get why you are so annoyed when I am following YOUR logic.
So please answer the question: how much do you estimate Wasims numbers improve and McGrath's get worse?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Not exactly. We are comparing him with someone who had to play on tougher pitches for his whole career.
PlayerComparisons
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Coronis
International Coach
Coronis
International Coach
I actually think McGrath’s numbers would improve and Wasim’s numbers would worsen if they swapped cordons.
kyear2
International Coach
Im not annoyed, it's just as usual you miss the point.
And why pick on McGrath?
One country prioritizes it
One doesn't, nothing to do with luck.
It's basically the same as the forum here, where (for the most part) where one comes down on the issue seems to depend on where you grew up watching the sport.
Even after this discussion, and by a twist of fate, we cracked time travel and you were to draft a team to play the martians for the sake of earth, you wouldn't give it a second though.
You will be sure to stack up the batting though.
One of the many things I love about football
, and one of the things that gets it coined a copycat league, is that they look at how teams win, what positions heavily contributed to that, and choose and pay accordingly. They simply follow suit. A Jacques Kallis is invaluable to a cricket team, yet for many the criticism is often that he didn't bowl enough (to be considered an all-rounder of all things). Even though it was perfectly proportioned to maintain his batting production and afford him more time at 2nd.
So the question probably shouldn't be how much to adjust, but how to get countries to focus on the right areas of the sport.
This is like the 3rd or 4th adjustment idea.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Stop conflating the individual bowler with an entire cricket setup. It is luck where a player happen to be born given the facilities available to help you succeed.
So answer the question: what would be, in your best estimate, the records of Wasim and McGrath if they flipped cordons?
The question I asked isn't about teams. Stop dodging.
kyear2
International Coach
It's not conflating, but it's also your 3rd attempt to try to adjust figures.
The last one was how many point to adjust for fast bowlers for having to bowl at home in the SC. I could also ask how many points to adjust for Kallis having to bat at home in SA, but... Every single cricketer has built in advantages and disadvantages for when they played. Wasim was discovered and mentored by one of the pioneers of and greatest proponents of reverse swing. He was taught all of the in and outs, illegal and otherwise of how to become a master of reverse, wasn't that an advantage as well?
And literally no one looks at naked averages without context, and Wasim is a very highly rated bowler. Everyone takes into context his early start (shared by quite a few btw), his end of career dip not helped by his health challenges (lits of examples of those as well) and his fielding support.
Would his record have been better with a better cordon? Definitely, even more importantly Pakistan would have been a better team and won more games. Did they make any such changes over the length of his very long career? But guess Smali was the chairman of selectors and thought it shouldn't factor into selection criteria.
Unsure why picking on McGrath when every other great bowler had similar advantages, he's not the outlier, Wasim is. Even Murali had Mahela and the indian spinners, Dravid.
So yes, his numbers would be better, and no, not being Pigeon into this, because he wasn't the outlier. Because every other team had the sense to prioritize giving their bowlers the required support.
For example, sure Ambrose wasn't going to sit back and say nothing if they thought of dropping Hooper, just saying.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Dude, need I remind you, you are the one who was calculating lost slip catches into runs. Why are you so shy with translating that into average estimates? I am asking for a range where you think it would affect an ATG bowler. Let's forget Wasim and McGrath for a second, just put it as the difference a poor versus a great cordon would make on any ATG average. Please tell.
kyear2
International Coach
I'm not playing your games, I've told it it would have improved. It would also impact any bowlers average. If you were a selector right now in Pakistan, what would you do about it?
His raw averages isn't why I don't rate him as highly as say Ambrose for instance. But the guy is top 10, like ever.
I will toss out a question for you to ignore, just as you ignored the previous post and the overall context?
Which is more destructive to a team, having someone keep dropping catches, or just a weak link in said cordon, or having your best bowler at no. 11 averaging 7?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Dropping catches is more destructive. See how easy that was?
Now answer mine: what will be difference in averages over a career for an ATG pacer with a poor versus a great cordon?
OverratedSanity
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Yes, Wasim should've personally given them catching lessons. What a nonsense point you keep bringing up.
OverratedSanity
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On an individual level of course it has something to do with luck that Mcgrath happened to be born in a country that prioritized good slip fielding and wasim didn't. I'd like you to explain why it's not atleast somewhat down to good fortune. Do not back out of explaining this ridiculous claim.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
It's akin to saying children living in war torn middle East aren't unlucky but have skill issues.....
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The problem is he is shifty, he will say 'yeah we should give Wasim extra credit' but in the end it is just lip service.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
@kyear2 constantly punching down Imran and Miller and saying that primary skills are most important; but simultaneously upping Sobers ahead of Don will never be not funny to me..... I just want to grasp that does he truly believes that the difference in Don's and Sobers' batting was marginal and Marshall/McGrath's and Imran's bowling was significant!!? I mean, What The ****!!!?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I am trying to wrap my mind behind what he just said. He is literally blaming the bowlers for the slip poor fielding standards. Unbelievable.
The concept of 'a team can carry a weak number 11' is specious in the discussion of team selection.
Sure, a team can carry a weak number 11. Even selecting Martin over a genuine number 11 is not doing that much damage.
But I dont think anyone has ever selected a genuine number 11 based on batting ability. You are losing a much better bat/weakening a chunk of your batting lineup by leaving out a number 7 (or whatever).
Maybe I think Martin was a slightly better bowler than Sobers. I'm not picking Martin over Sobers because he's a bit better with the ball, and I can afford to carry a weak 11. It would nuke the batting.
For every other bowler, the effect on batting is less pronounced, but still present. The cut off point is for factoring in batting is not 'anyone worse than Sobers'. It's when your team gets worse by losing more through bowling (or balance) than it gains in batting.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
According to @kyear2, McGrath is head of both Imran and Hadlee as a cricketer, yet Gilly is ahead of Knott and Sobers is ahead of Bradman, and somehow he in his mind is totally consistent...