What are the 5 greatest bowling attacks ever fielded?

[subshakerz]

it's more a function of McGrath's utility in English conditions, with the duke ball. Almost all seam bowlers would do a lot better in England than they would in Australia, I would think. There's a bit of guesswork involved, but a fair assumption would be if McGrath had every summer to attune to English pitches, balls etc. and bowling to touring batsmen not used to those conditions rather than against locals, his bare stats would look a lot better than what he ended up with playing half his cricket in Australia.

Yeah but he would have to bowl against teams both worse and better than the quality of English bats he thrived against too.

If McGrath was English his career average could be 17-18

Exaggeration obviously. Sustaining a 18/19 average over that long a stretch is far more difficult than the occasional series you play there.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah but he would have to bowl against teams both worse and better than the quality of English bats he thrived against too.

He could just do a Jimmy Anderson and skip the games that don't suit him. Probably end up with 900 wickets @ 17

 

[subshakerz]

even more so in an ATG scenario. No one was better against the best batsmen than McGrath, and his unmatched record in the best era for batting and playing on generally batting-friendly conditions.

This gets played a lot. The problem is that he didn't really succeed like that in Pakistan/SL.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This gets played a lot. The problem is that he didn't really succeed like that in Pakistan/SL.

[youtube]

 

[TheJediBrah]

If he played for Pakistan he'd be swinging the (totally not messed-with) ball around corners and the umps give everything that flicked a pad

Probably average 10

 

[subshakerz]

[youtube]

I love how much Inzi is smiling in this clip.

 

[OverratedSanity]

[youtube]

Good decision. Inzi is a huge man. His oversized pads make this look out when it's not imo. Crybaby Mcgrath.

 

[subshakerz]

Good decision. Inzi is a huge man. His oversized pads make this look out when it's not imo. Crybaby Mcgrath.

True. Due to Inzi's huge size, his stride before the ball hits is nearly half the pitch. No way he can be sure it is hitting the stumps.

 

[Migara]

If he played for Pakistan he'd be swinging the (totally not messed-with) ball around corners and the umps give everything that flicked a pad

Probably average 10

Nah, Salman butt and Kamran Akmal will give him tantrums so violent he will blow a gasket and return to the dressing room.

 

[kyear2]

I think you are arguing against a strawman.

Nobody wants to compromise on anything less than ATG bowling quality. Nobody wants a poor slip cordon.

We see a tail of some degree of lower order batting as ranging from essential to useful to irrelevant depending on the quality of side we are facing. If we expect to face an ATG side we can't afford weaknesses. You agree with this.

We just disagree on whether Imran vs Steyn and Hadlee vs McGrath are acceptable tradeoffs.

Our differences are thus:

- You perceive a tail of useful tailenders as sufficient

- You think that compromising on any top tier bowling quality is more likely to lead to defeat than not having a strong tail

Touching briefly on everything here.

Not arguing, just highlighting.

We have multiple members who would select the entire bowling lineup around batting, which I honestly find to be idiotic, but doesn't give a though to who would be catching those would be edges. A factor which is at least, equally important.

Yes, can't afford weaknesses, we fully agree on that... But it also have to be balanced with which is the best attack.

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I think any of Steyn, Hadlee or Imran are viable options for 1st change, just all for different reasons...

I wouldn't phrase them as useful tailenders, think Malcolm and Shane were a bit better than that.

Nothing to add to the last post, you phrased it perfectly...

Malcolm and McGrath for me are non negotiable in ways that shouldn't need explaining.

The last 3 are a toss up, and yes, stronger batting would be an advantage, just depends on the compromise required.

 

[kyear2]

Depends on the quality of opposition they face.

I can imagine, if they are facing a similar ATG team with a bunny tail, it will matter at least 1 game per series in changing a potential loss to a draw/win.

My thing is that
1. None of my offerings offered up a bunny tail
2. I agree someone said about 40 runs added per innings, there's no guarantee of that, especially in elevated competition.
3. You phrased it better than me in your last post, so, I'll leave it at that.

For me it's just finding the right balance

For you, you don't have that problem because u see Imran as equal to say a Hadlee and above Steyn, so there's the best of both worlds.

 

[kyear2]

I agree but the 3 McGraths option is not reasonable IMO. With two Hadlees and an Imran (or vice versa), you would lose little, if anything, in the bowling. In fact, you might even be better off. With three McGraths, you have three metronomes which isn't necessarily a bad thing but there's something to be said for a bowling combination which offers you much more variation like a mixture of conventional swing, reverse swing, genuine pace and express pace. Also, both Imran and Hadlee had extraordinary peaks as bowlers:

View attachment 40563

They were also excellent on all types of wickets and could conjure up an unplayable ball from time to time which might be required to dislodge a well-set great batsman.

And the extra batting they would add is significant:

McGrath: 641 runs in 138 innings x 3 = 13.9 runs/innings

Hadlee: 3124 runs in 134 innings = 23.3 runs/innings

Imran: 3807 runs in 126 innings = 30.2 runs/innings

2H + I = 76.8 cf. 13.9 for 3M, an extra 62.9 runs/innings

H + 2I = 83.7 cf. 13.9 for 3M, an extra 69.8 runs/innings

So an extra 60-70 runs/innings.

Another point: Hadlee did an excessive amount of bowling for NZ and I suspect his batting suffered as a result. In a stronger team, I think he would have been more productive with the bat.

Think we were just referencing them based on batting numbers and overall quality, not them specifically.

 

[Qlder]

Is this a thread derailment record for CW? Pretty much 2 and a bit pages of interesting thread about picking the top 5 actual bowling attack that hit the field, and then 4 pages of off-topic make believe about bowler batting ability with 3 McGrath in the same side. Really strange as there's already a thread about that

Do tailend runs affect your cricketer rating?

I was saying WI for worst tail with Walsh and Ambrose but guys like Cuffy or Rose. Very weak tails. Not looking back at the averages, but was Sir Curtly that bad? Not Walsh bad for sure.

www.cricketweb.net

Edit: only posted because it's a shame such an interesting topic got killed

 

[kyear2]

I love how much Inzi is smiling in this clip.

Really?

 

[subshakerz]

Really?

Yeah he knows he got away with highway robbery.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah he knows he got away with highway robbery.

Umpires were probably part of the Pakistan team meetings back then

 

[subshakerz]

We have multiple members who would select the entire bowling lineup around batting, which I honestly find to be idiotic, but doesn't give a though to who would be catching those would be edges. A factor which is at least, equally important.

Dude that's an exaggeration. Nobody is picking Shaun Pollock. They are all basically talking about Wasim, Imran and Hadlee., basically ATG pacers

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I think any of Steyn, Hadlee or Imran are viable options for 1st change, just all for different reasons...

That is progress then.

I wouldn't phrase them as useful tailenders, think Malcolm and Shane were a bit better than that.

Not against an ATG bowling lineup.

Malcolm and McGrath for me are non negotiable in ways that shouldn't need explaining.

As long as Hadlee exists, you will need to explain McGrath. Just accept that it is no slam dunk in his case.

The last 3 are a toss up, and yes, stronger batting would be an advantage, just depends on the compromise required.

My friend, let me enlighten you to my thinking.

I think between ATG pacers, it is very hard to tell in an actual ATG games what their difference in output would be. Especailly since we dont know which version of the bowler we are discussing will turn up in the game.

I can speculate McGrath would do a bit better than Imran in England and Australia but I think Imran still ends up with quality returns, just not McGrath excellent. I imagine Imran doing notably better in Pakistan or SL. I don't see enough for us to base with confidence that Imran or Steyn or Ambrose doing significantly worse than Hadlee, Marshall or McGrath overall in terms of games and series won.

Yes, I back Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath overall to do a bit better, but I think we can agree this is a speculative exercise and the extent to which they will be better and how much it will affect games is also highly debatable.

On the other hand, I dont think there is any doubt whatsoever that Imran and Hadlee are going to be giving a lot more runs per game than the other options, and that those runs mean more if scores are lower. So why not take the definite over the much harder to speculate?

My thing is that
1. None of my offerings offered up a bunny tail

You gave that example.

 

[subshakerz]

Is this a thread derailment record for CW? Pretty much 2 and a bit pages of interesting thread about picking the top 5 actual bowling attack that hit the field, and then 4 pages of off-topic make believe about bowler batting ability with 3 McGrath in the same side. Really strange as there's already a thread about that

Do tailend runs affect your cricketer rating?

I was saying WI for worst tail with Walsh and Ambrose but guys like Cuffy or Rose. Very weak tails. Not looking back at the averages, but was Sir Curtly that bad? Not Walsh bad for sure.

www.cricketweb.net

Edit: only posted because it's a shame such an interesting topic got killed

Yes. Same posters even admit sometimes they post without even confirming which thread they are posting in.

 

[Qlder]

Yes. Same posters even admit sometimes they post without even confirming which thread they are posting in.

That just confirms what I was thinking in that every bowler thread seems to be derailed into a tail batting ability debate lately.

Edit: and below derail initiator still ignores thread topic and just keeps it going on his agenda of tail batting ability

 

[kyear2]

Dude that's an exaggeration. Nobody is picking Shaun Pollock. They are all basically talking about Wasim, Imran and Hadlee., basically ATG pacers


That is progress then.


Not against an ATG bowling lineup.



As long as Hadlee exists, you will need to explain McGrath. Just accept that it is no slam dunk in his case.


My friend, let me enlighten you to my thinking.

I think between ATG pacers, it is very hard to tell in an actual ATG games what their difference in output would be. Especailly since we dont know which version of the bowler we are discussing will turn up in the game.

I can speculate McGrath would do a bit better than Imran in England and Australia but I think Imran still ends up with quality returns, just not McGrath excellent. I imagine Imran doing notably better in Pakistan or SL. I don't see enough for us to base with confidence that Imran or Steyn or Ambrose doing significantly worse than Hadlee, Marshall or McGrath anywhere to the point where it will cost them games. Yes, I back Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath overall to do a bit better, but I think we can agree this is a speculative exercise and the extent to which they will be better and how much it will affect games is also highly debatable.

On the other hand, I dont think there is any doubt whatsoever that Imran and Hadlee are going to be giving a lot more runs per game than the other options, and that those runs mean more if scores are lower. So why not take the definite over the much harder to speculate?


You gave that example.

If you're choosing the 3rd best pacer from a bowling era, along with the two above him, all because they can bat, over at least one other from less conducive eras who were in McGrath's case better, and in Steyn's just as effective, then yes, you're choosing them based on batting.

Not progress, my opinion.
Think Imran is ridiculously over rated here, though strangely not as a bowler. He's 4th in the ongoing vote for options for an ATG attack, also just got voted the 8th best bowler of all time, but yet, the 3rd best cricketer.
But that doesn't mean he's not a viable option. He's the best old ball bowler and best batsman, it's s toss up, but a viable one.

We can agree to disagree, they all had talent with the bat, just some were more required to apply it on a more consistent basis. Neither of the two were useless.

McGrath vs Hadlee, both great stats and similar styles, one did it playing in primarily 3 pace friendly countries his entire career in a bowling era, while one did the same if not better in the flat pitch era. One's bounce and accuracy took the pitch out of the equation, relying on swing considerably less.
So while batting may factor in for some, intangibles and traits are more important to me.