3rd Greatest 19 century cricketer

[sayon basak]

Who do you think is the 3rd Greatest cricketer of the 19th century after WG Grace and George Lohmann?

 

[trundler]

Mynn > Lohmann. Spofforth was Lohmann's equal at least. Think AG Steel should be an option too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lohman wasn't the second greatest really. Spofforth was almost undisputedly considered better, Lohman's average is pleasantly boosted by his matches against a SA team that wasn't Test standard. Also, shouldn't Ranji count?? And Briggs, Peel, Trumble, Steel, Fry and Blackham should be in the poll too.

 

[sayon basak]

Also, shouldn't Ranji count??

Thought about ranjitsinghji, but he also played significant amount of FC matches in the 20th century

 

[Yeoman]

I went for Shrewsbury as probably the second best batsman after Grace in the pre-modern era, which I would define as ending around 1890 in England. Jackson, Ranji and Fry belong to the later, 1890-1914 ‘Golden Age’ in my book. The bowlers from the pre 1890 period have fantastic figures on paper however they were greatly aided by favourable pitches.

The likes of Mynn, Felix and Pilch from the mid 19th century round arm era I find very hard to compare to later players of the over arm era.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Thought about ranjitsinghji, but he also played significant amount of FC matches in the 20th century

I believe if he counts, he got this.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I went for Shrewsbury as probably the second best batsman after Grace in the pre-modern era, which I would define as starting around 1890 in England. Jackson, Ranji and Fry belong to the later, 1890-1914 ‘Golden Age’ in my book. The bowlers from the pre 1890 period have fantastic figures on paper however they were greatly aided by favourable pitches.

The likes of Mann, Felix and Pilch from the mid 19th century round arm era I find very hard to compare to later players of the over arm era.

It's especially hard to rate someone like Alfred Mynn, but as the question is greater not better, I think he has a notable advantage as the undisputed GoAT pre Grace.

 

[sayon basak]

I believe if he counts, he got this.

I think if Ranjit was in this poll, the poll would be a bit one sided.

 

[sayon basak]

It's especially hard to rate someone like Alfred Mynn, but as the question is greater not better

Yes Exactly, who is better would a pretty absurd question, as none of us saw them play.

 

[peterhrt]

Lohman's average is pleasantly boosted by his matches against a SA team that wasn't Test standard.

Wisden was strongly opposed to any of the 19th century South Africa v England matches being counted as Tests, and maintained their position until after WW2. The games weren't even considered the equivalent of first-class at the time.

For the purposes of assessing English cricketers, especially bowlers like Lohmann and Briggs, it is sensible to ignore these matches.

 

[Brook's side]

Yes Exactly, who is better would a pretty absurd question, as none of us saw them play.

We've seen Leadenfoot Grace play (a tiny bit).

 

[Brook's side]

Wisden was strongly opposed to any of the 19th century South Africa v England matches being counted as Tests, and maintained their position until after WW2. The games weren't even considered the equivalent of first-class at the time.

For the purposes of assessing English cricketers, especially bowlers like Lohmann and Briggs, it is sensible to ignore these matches.

They were played on mats weren't they?

 

[BazBall21]

Spofforth is the goat

 

[Yeoman]

They were played on mats weren't they?

Yes. Tests in South Africa were played in matting well into the 20th century (not entirely sure when they stopped).

 

[Yeoman]

We've seen Leadenfoot Grace play (a tiny bit).

Only in the nets when about 50. His mobility had diminished by this time which hindered his playing of spin.

 

[Brook's side]

So of my notes on the leading bowlers:

*fast bowler George Lohmann averaged 10.8 in tests and 13.7 1st class.
*JJ Ferris averaged 12.7 in tests across the same decades as Lohmann.
*Johny Briggs took 55 test wickets in the 1880s @ 7.9, yet in the 1890s inexplicably averaged only 26.
*Lohmann's 1st class average (which was arguably more significant in this era that test matches figures) was beaten by his unheralded contemporary Fred Morley (13.4).
*Lohmann’s 1st class strike rate was beaten by Fredd Spofforth (35.8 v 38.9).


George A Lohmann (England) 1886-1896 Right Arm Fast Medium
"Rated by contemporaries as the most difficult opponent, he bowled at little more than medium pace but was able to make the ball seam both ways, and his constant experimentation led to variations in angle, flight and pace. Add into the equation his metronomic accuracy, and he was often unplayable. " Martin Williamson ESPNCricinfo

“he holds the lowest lifetime Test bowling average among bowlers with more than fifteen wickets and…the second highest peak rating for a bowler in the ICC ratings. He also holds the record for the lowest strike rate…in all Test history” Wikipedia. Photo: Wikipedia



Hugh Trumble (Australia) 1890-1904 Right Arm Off-Break
“…could take wickets in all conditions. On the wet pitches often found in those days, especially the sticky wickets in his native Australia he was virtually unplayable. A tall man, he bowled offspin at close to medium pace with considerable variation in flight and pace. He turned the ball enough to beat the bat on true pitches, but on a wet wicket could make the ball bite, turn and lift spitefully. He fooled many a good batsman with a well disguised slower ball often resulting in a caught and bowled” Dave Liverman ESPNCricinfo “Trumble took 141 wickets in Test cricket—a world record at the time of his retirement…He is one of only four bowlers to twice take a hat-trick in Test cricket.” Wikipedia Photo: Wikipedia

 

[peterhrt]

Fred Morley had retired before Lohmann made his first-class debut. Morley was more a contemporary of Alfred Shaw.

Lohmann and Turner were the leading bowlers of their time, contemporary with Ferris, Peel and Briggs. Although there was some overlap, Spofforth was earlier. The best English bowler of Spofforth's time was probably left-arm spinner Ted Peate, who was generally rated higher than either Peel or Briggs due to his deceptive flight and variations.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Grace is the undisputed Goat but Lohmann isn’t undisputed 2nd, far from it.

 

[peterhrt]

Malinga would have been accepted as a roundarm bowler in the mid 19th century.

 

[number11]

CB Fry is a must in any team if we're considering all areas including social.