Best Attack

[subshakerz]

Yes Sachin is "slightly" the better batsman, but Hammond is very similar in terms of quality and MO, arguably the greatest ever slip fielder, and a very valuable 6th bowler. Which may well be required in these games.

Apples and oranges. Once you have Sobers as a fifth bowling option, you don't need a 6th in Hammond. It's like needing your number 11 to be able to bat, it's superfluous.

 

[Bolo.]

Respectfully, no I haven't. You have said that basically it's a no brainer to just select them because they are the best batsmen among the bowlers, basically it's the combo anyone would chose if they were selecting such a team.

I then looked around the interwebs and not a single organization, collective or person chose that combination. Becuse as I've said you cannot chose your entire bowling lineup based on batting, it's, imo ILLOGICAL.

I don't think that my opinion is the only one, nor an I trying to convince anyone of anything. I wanted an open discussion about what would people would see as an ideal bowling lineup in an ATG scenario.

To steal your word, the only combination that I find indefensible would be to choose 3 bowlers from the exact same bowling era, where one was a clear 3rd in the pecking order, where all 3 are being selected for their batting.

I'm aware that for most there should be a balanced approach where the no 8 at least can hold the bat, I'm ok with that. My only position is that in a team with this batting strength, you have the ability to choose the best possible bowling attack that compliments each other and is most capable of taking the 20 wickets for as little runs as possible. That's their main job and that should be paramount in the selection process.

So while you make the argument about how many runs they can score, for me, that's 1. immaterial and 2. not something one can count on on these scenarios.

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, that's just my perspective based on watching cricket for 4 decades. McGrath of Barnes, who ever your guy is, has to be there.

No. I didn't say this, and it's not my selection methodology. There are better bats than Hadlee and Marshall from the ATGs who I'm not picking.

You are getting confused because I think Imran + Hadlee should be an autopick over Steyn + Mcgrath as a pair. Other combos are more debatable in my book, even ones I'd rather pick Steyn and Mcgrath over, like Barnes.

 

[kyear2]

No. I didn't say this, and it's not my selection methodology. There are better bats than Hadlee and Marshall from the ATGs who I'm not picking.

You are getting confused because I think Imran + Hadlee should be an autopick over Steyn + Mcgrath as a pair. Other combos are more debatable in my book, even ones I'd rather pick Steyn and Mcgrath over, like Barnes.

You're arguing over semantics.

No matter how you want to phrase it, the fact remains that you believe that batting should be weighted heavily in the selection criteria for all of the bowlers... Almost to the point where the bowling is a secondary consideration.

I disagree, and this is borne out by that fact that I have never seen an arg xi selected that way. No. 8 sure, but not to the point that a Barnes / McGrath / Lillee isn't selected.

That has been my only point, you can't choose every bowler based on batting.

 

[smash84]

you believe that batting should be weighted heavily in the selection criteria for all of the bowlers... Almost to the point where the bowling is a secondary consideration.

Dude, how do you come up with such nonsense?

 

[subshakerz]

No matter how you want to phrase it, the fact remains that you believe that batting should be weighted heavily in the selection criteria for all of the bowlers... Almost to the point where the bowling is a secondary consideration.

Not what he is saying at all.

That has been my only point, you can't choose every bowler based on batting.

No, you argue you shouldnt factor batting at all after the keeper in an ATG game and your decisions reflect that.

 

[kyear2]

For those in the gallery that either can't comprehend or deliebraly being obtuse.

If you're going to omit according to our consistent rankings, and my personal opinion, the 2nd best bowler ever, who happens to be the perfect compliment to the other opening bowler, who had an unprecedented run of success with the selected spinner and was the spear head and most important player in one of the two greatest teams ever, who continued to dominate in an era of less helpful pitches...

Then bowling isn't your primary criteria for selection.
Especially with this lineup, and Hadlee, Marshall and Warne already there who were more than decent with the bat.

Basically, can't bat, can't play. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Bolo.]

I was under the impression that we were trying to create the strongest possible team. And that the strongest team would involve maximising batting and bowling.

 

[kyear2]

I was under the impression that we were trying to create the strongest possible team. And that the strongest team would involve maximising batting and bowling.

But is it the strongest if you prioritize the strength of the batting over the effectiveness of the bowling, for the bowlers?

In my humble opinion no.

 

[kyear2]

Apples and oranges. Once you have Sobers as a fifth bowling option, you don't need a 6th in Hammond. It's like needing your number 11 to be able to bat, it's superfluous.

Exactly.

 

[Bolo.]

But is it the strongest if you prioritize the strength of the batting over the effectiveness of the bowling, for the bowlers?

In my humble opinion no.

Just play an extra bowling option if you don't fancy the balance. Miller would be good for balance.

Not that I'd come close to picking him as the 5th bowler, but even someone like Akram should give you at least a comparable amount of runs, and a much, much stronger bowling lineup.

 

[subshakerz]

Exactly.

Exactly, and nobody is arguing for a number 11. That's your strawman.

If you're going to omit according to our consistent rankings, and my personal opinion, the 2nd best bowler ever, who happens to be the perfect compliment to the other opening bowler, who had an unprecedented run of success with the selected spinner and was the spear head and most important player in one of the two greatest teams ever, who continued to dominate in an era of less helpful pitches...

Dude we are considering bowling. Unlike you we don't think there is a vast differential in the top 6/7 ATG pacers. We all think the extra batting more than makes up for any difference. If Lillee had Imran's or Hadlee's batting we would also consider him.

What you need to prove is that selecting Imran or Hadlee would end up costing you games than if you had Steyn or McGrath. You haven't even attempted to show that.

Like in a real ATG game, what do you think Steyn would do in these ATG games that Imran cannot? I have already explained my view, Steyn is too scattergun as a third seamer frankly.

 

[kyear2]

Exactly, and nobody is arguing for a number 11. That's your strawman.


Dude we are considering bowling. Unlike you we don't think there is a vast differential in the top 6/7 ATG pacers. We all think the extra batting more than makes up for any difference. If Lillee had Imran's or Hadlee's batting we would also consider him.

What you need to prove is that selecting Imran or Hadlee would end up costing you games than if you had Steyn or McGrath. You haven't even attempted to show that.

Like in a real ATG game, what do you think Steyn would do in these ATG games that Imran cannot? I have already explained my view, Steyn is too scattergun as a third seamer frankly.

Literally what Bolo is arguing. I'm convinced you're just liking posts and not reading them.

 

[subshakerz]

Literally what Bolo is arguing. I'm convinced you're just liking posts and not reading them.

Ugh, it's not. He is arguing for Imran and Hadlee together. Why do you keep strawmanning?

 

[kyear2]

Ugh, it's not. He is arguing for Imran and Hadlee together. Why do you keep strawmanning?

Along with Marshall and Warne because he wants to maximize run out out.

So yes, no 11 must be able to bat. Why is this difficult for u?

 

[subshakerz]

Along with Marshall and Warne because he wants to maximize run out out.

So yes, no 11 must be able to bat. Why is this difficult for u?

That's more happenstance. Even I have Marshall and Warne and their runs are useful but I doubt he is picking them over Lillee and Murali because of runs.

 

[kyear2]

That's more happenstance. Even I have Marshall and Warne and their runs are useful but I doubt he is picking them over Lillee and Murali because of runs.

You literally miss the entire point. He's saying he wants to maximize output so yes, all the bowlers have to be able to bat.

He literally said that.

 

[subshakerz]

You literally miss the entire point. He's saying he wants to maximize output so yes, all the bowlers have to be able to bat.

He literally said that.

When? Maybe I missed that post.

 

[kyear2]

Anyways, moving on from that.

No team I could find online agrees with that premise. Most seem to want a decent no 8 and the rest can be chosen based on what they can do with the ball.

So yeah, Bolo and I are both at opposite ends of the spectrum and possibly outside the norm. But as I literally said pages ago, I would be willing to come to a compromise and acquiesce in a selection meeting. Once the no 8 once of similar quality.

This really isn't anything to continue to argue over.

 

[subshakerz]

But as I literally said pages ago, I would be willing to come to a compromise and acquiesce in a selection meeting. Once the no 8 once of similar quality.

Except you literally said the opposite and said you would select Steyn over Hadlee.

 

[Bolo.]

When? Maybe I missed that post.

I'm saying something a bit like this. Runs count from any position. And we have seen a lot of tests saved by a 10/11 hanging on.

Picking between 2 actual 11s, its not likely to make any real difference, and unless the choice is something crazy like Pommie Mbangwa vs Symcox, batting quality is highly unlikely to play a role in who I would pick.

But picking Mcgrath over Imran because you can 'afford a number 11' does a lot more damage to your batting at positions 8 and 9 than it does at 11. And I do consider Marshalls batting to be a factor. I reckon he's the best bowler, but I would consider Mcgrath a better player if you swapped their batting abilities.