All-time Australia XIs - A re-run

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Simpson and Lawry: see previous post

You've not done Lawry yet.

Agree Hayden has a case. Could rank him/Lawry/Simpson/Trumper as openers in pretty much any order justifiably. Khawaja maybe approaching that group but not sure he's quite there yet.

 

[Brook's side]

Move Damian Martyn and Dean Jones up and you can cut it down from 15 teams to 4 without it being a major loss.

 

[trundler]

You've not done Lawry yet.

Agree Hayden has a case. Could rank him/Lawry/Simpson/Trumper as openers in pretty much any order justifiably. Khawaja maybe approaching that group but not sure he's quite there yet.

Hayden was never described as a corpse with pads on and the general point about the 60s lacking quality pace bowlers apply to him too. I don't want to get into the business of butchering numbers but the main criticism of Hayden is that he didn't face many great bowlers but it's not as it Simpson and Lawry covered themselves in glory against the one great pacer they faced (Trueman).

Hayden may smell but the others reek. He's the most accomplished and dominant of an equally flawed lot. Though a third of Simpson's career being ignored does mystify me the most.

 

[Red]

Simpson
Morris

Bradman

Lillee
McGrath

 

[kyear2]

Hayden is the best Australian opener of all time and that's the ugly truth. Yes, much maligned FTB bible thumping blabbermouth bogan Matty Hayden is better than all the less accomplished blokes from the past even though everyone remembers Ambrose putting him on a leash and tazing his nuts.

Arthur Morris had an even more concentrated peak which came in an even higher scoring era (the late 40s) and had Dean Elgar returns when English cricket recovered from the War.

Simpson and Lawry: see previous post.

Ponsford: played all of 7 years on decks flatter than drop in pitches and then retired because cricket was becoming too mean.

Trumper: was a much a better middle order batsman and his best work came in tour matches/FC games, not tests.

There's no escaping facts and logic unfortunately.

Agreed on Haydos, no argument there.

But Simpson was a more than solid opening batsman, arguable the greatest slip fielder ever and more than useful back up.leg spinner. With no clear no 2, he's the best all round option. No?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Agreed on Haydos, no argument there.

But Simpson was a more than solid opening batsman, arguable the greatest slip fielder ever and more than useful back up.leg spinner. With no clear no 2, he's the best all round option. No?

There's a clear no 1 though, Victor Trumper. As a pure opener Simpson actually have strong case ahead of Hayden; and considering team balance, it gets trickier. Simpson was an ATG slip catcher and useful bowler while Hayden batted left handed.

 

[BazBall21]

Hayden was never described as a corpse with pads on and the general point about the 60s lacking quality pace bowlers apply to him too. I don't want to get into the business of butchering numbers but the main criticism of Hayden is that he didn't face many great bowlers but it's not as it Simpson and Lawry covered themselves in glory against the one great pacer they faced (Trueman).

Hayden may smell but the others reek. He's the most accomplished and dominant of an equally flawed lot. Though a third of Simpson's career being ignored does mystify me the most.

Lawry dominated Trueman on his first tour. FST got his own back in the home leg though.

 

[Teuton]

Hayden
Trumper
Bradman

McGrath
Lillee

This for me

 

[Coronis]

I did make this point re: Khawaja relatively recently - I prefer not to finalise a ranking on a player until they’re done playing, but he’s definitely in the discussion and I might end up voting him in the second time.

Ideally for an Aussie team Smith suddenly goes on a tear at opener and you can have

Smith
Hayden
Bradman
Chappell
Ponting
Border

 

[kyear2]

There's a clear no 1 though, Victor Trumper. As a pure opener Simpson actually have strong case ahead of Hayden; and considering team balance, it gets trickier. Simpson was an ATG slip catcher and useful bowler while Hayden batted left handed.

So yes, good combination. Hayden and Simpson.

As I said, I don't consider players before the Great War.

 

[BazBall21]

Trumper
Lawry

Bradman

McGrath
Lillee

 

[BazBall21]

I would have Hayden over Morris and Simpson though. The latter two are overrated.

 

[Flametree]

I have a bit of an issue with this approach of picking different parts of the side separately. I think the order of the parts selected could affect the players selected... I'd first like to agree on a shape of each side before selecting players.

Is Miller going to be selected? Does he bat in the top 6 if he is?

If so, that means you could prefer Miller + 2 quicks + O'Reilly + Warne to a side with 4 genuine seam bowlers + one spinner. If that were the balance of the side, I'd pick one of Lindwall or Davidson ahead of one of McGrath and Lillee, as the balance of the side needs a number 8.

Whereas it might be people want 6 batsman and four bowlers, and Miller is vying for the number 8 position.
If that were the agreed on shape, then batsmen like Simpson and Waugh might be more popular as they can bowl a bit...

Having said that :

Simpson
Trumper
Bradman

Lindwall
McGrath

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I think the "2 best opening batsmen" as specified in the OP have been Hayden and Morris, but the two I'd pick in an ATG side are Trumper (overall greatness) and Simpson (gives leadership, slip fielding, and a decent 2nd spinner if only 1 specialist spinner is picked).

Bradman

McGrath
Lillee

 

[capt_Luffy]

I would have Hayden over Morris and Simpson though. The latter two are overrated.

And Lawry?? I thought you loved Lawry....

 

[CricAddict]

I have a bit of an issue with this approach of picking different parts of the side separately. I think the order of the parts selected could affect the players selected... I'd first like to agree on a shape of each side before selecting players.

Is Miller going to be selected? Does he bat in the top 6 if he is?

If so, that means you could prefer Miller + 2 quicks + O'Reilly + Warne to a side with 4 genuine seam bowlers + one spinner. If that were the balance of the side, I'd pick one of Lindwall or Davidson ahead of one of McGrath and Lillee, as the balance of the side needs a number 8.

Whereas it might be people want 6 batsman and four bowlers, and Miller is vying for the number 8 position.
If that were the agreed on shape, then batsmen like Simpson and Waugh might be more popular as they can bowl a bit...

Having said that :

Simpson
Trumper
Bradman

Lindwall
McGrath

Everyone will have their own preference of having 4 or 5 bowlers, #batdeep, #bowldeep and other variations for their side, so I am leaving it to each individual voter to decide that. At a high level, the make-up request from me will be for 2 openers, 4 MOB, 1 WK, 3 pacers and a spinner to complete the XI. You can either decide to choose one or more of the above as AR or a pure batsman/bowler and vote accordingly.

 

[BazBall21]

And Lawry?? I thought you loved Lawry....

**** it. Hard to look past Hayden's output but I'm gonna double down on Bill. Had a great England tour v Trueman/Statham and was very consistent outside SAF away.

 

[CricAddict]

It is really heartening to see the response to the exercise. We had 18 voters for the first round and a total of 14 players got voted for the 5 positions the tally of which is as below.

The all-time greats Don Bradman and Glenn Mcgrath sweep the polls while Lillee and Simpson also get into the first side by a good margin. The big surprise is that Simpson was not voted in the first XI 6 years back while he was almost unanimous winner for the opener's position this time.

	Total votes	90​
	Total voters	18​
OP	Trumper	5​
OP	Simpson	14​
OP	Lawry	4​
OP	Hayden	8​
OP	**** it, Border	1​
OP	Watson	1​
OP	Katich	1​
OP	Khawaja	1​
OP	Morris	1​
No 3	Bradman	18​
FB	McGrath	18​
FB	Lillee	12​
FB	Lindwall	5​
FB	Davidson	1​

 

[CricAddict]

Australia XI so far. I am adding signs at the end to indicate those who got promoted or demoted from the 2018 teams.

Australia XI:
1. RB Simpson
2. ML Hayden
3. DG Bradman *
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10. DK Lillee
11. GD McGrath

 

[CricAddict]

Now please select..

1. the best spin bowling option
2. Numbers 4 and 5 in the batting order