What would an ATG game really look like?

[subshakerz]

Assuming you actually had a time machine and then access to these quality of two teams of ATG international players from history and got them to train together for a significant period, and then played a five match series in Australia or England, what would be the biggest difference from what we see in regular international test games?

What real world aspects of these games could surprise us?

Who would be the players you believe would succeed best in this scenario versus those ATGs who might potentially get exposed?

Would overrates and DRS significantly disadvantage players of older gens?

Would captaincy even make a significant difference for teams of such quality?

 

[Slifer]

Whichever team has Bradman is likely to win. Yes, I know captain obvious.

 

[shortpitched713]

I don't think it would be low scoring like many people expect. The subset of bowlers, would not be significantly quicker than in overall international Test matches, however the subset of batsmen would be only those with the most extreme reflexes, and so no weaker batsmen to target. Unless a bowler gets really hot and picks up a sequence of wickets in quick order, I would expect higher scores, and potentially more drawn matches than normal international cricket.

 

[kyear2]

Whichever team has Bradman is likely to win. Yes, I know captain obvious.

I very much disagree, think the team with the better bowling attack wins, which case in the two scenarios I'll present, may well be the teams with Bradman.

 

[reyrey]

I don't think it would be low scoring like many people expect. The subset of bowlers, would not be significantly quicker than overall international matches, however the subset of batsmen would be only those with the most extreme reflexes, and so no weaker batsmen to target. Unless a bowler gets really hot and picks up a sequence of wickets in quick order, I would expect higher scores, and potentially more drawn matches than normal international cricket.

Well batsman won't have weaker bowlers to target either or just "seeing off" the quality bowler, because quality is replaced by quality. That's probably more important than the point you made about bowlers having no weaker batsmen to target.

The best bowlers like McGrath actually always made a point of targetting the strongest batsman and succeeding.

 

[kyear2]

Assuming you actually had a time machine and then access to these quality of two teams of ATG international players from history and got them to train together for a significant period, and then played a five match series in Australia or England, what would be the biggest difference from what we see in regular international test games?

What real world aspects of these games could surprise us?

Who would be the players you believe would succeed best in this scenario versus those ATGs who might potentially get exposed?

Would overrates and DRS significantly disadvantage players of older gens?

Would captaincy even make a significant difference for teams of such quality?

It think it will be the same. If it's in Australia or England (which I agree with) it may lean slightly in the favor of the bowlers with occasional stand out performances by the batsmen. Quality always comes through.

I believe the players who were most tested in their careers would be the ones to show out here as well. The batsmen from the flat pitch eras would be the ones to suffer most.

DRS would be welcome, and both teams would have spinners so over rates wouldn't be an issue.

Captaincy will have no impact in my mind. Not even sure how much it really has in general.

 

[Slifer]

I very much disagree, think the team with the better bowling attack wins, which case in the two scenarios I'll present, may well be the teams with Bradman.

What I meant to say is , whichever team has Bradman, assuming all/most other aspects are comparable is likely to win :

Eng vs Aus

Sutcliffe
Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Botham
Knott+
Verity
Trueman
Barnes
Anderson

Lawry
Simpson
Bradman
Chappell
Smith
Miller
Gilchrist +
Warne
Lillee
O'Reilly
McGrath

 

[kyear2]

We can use either of two potential match ups.

PEWS XI
Hutton
Gavaskar
Hammond^
Tendulkar
Lara^
Sobers^ (5)
Gilchrist+
Imran* (3)
Warne (4)
Ambrose (2)
McGrath (1)

Kyear XI
Hobbs
Richards^
Bradman*
Richards^
Smith
Kallis^ (5)
Knott+
Hadlee (2)
Marshall (1)
Steyn (3)
Muralitharan (4)

I did change up 2 names .....

 

[subshakerz]

Well batsman won't have weaker bowlers to target either or just "seeing off" the quality bowler, because quality is replaced by quality. That's probably more important than the point you made about bowlers having no weaker batsmen to target.

The best bowlers like McGrath actually always made a point of targetting the strongest batsman and succeeding.

Actually think Murali and Warne may find themselves pounded really bad in these matches unless it's a spin track.

 

[subshakerz]

We can use either of two potential match ups.

PEWS XI
Hutton
Gavaskar
Hammond^
Tendulkar
Lara^
Sobers^ (5)
Gilchrist+
Imran* (3)
Warne (4)
Ambrose (2)
McGrath (1)

Kyear XI
Hobbs
Richards^
Bradman*
Richards^
Smith
Kallis^ (5)
Knott+
Hadlee (2)
Marshall (1)
Steyn (3)
Muralitharan (4)

I did change up 2 names .....

Thanks. For the sake of the exercise, let's use these two teams.

I think they are somewhat evenly matched. I do see captaincy playing a role.

 

[kyear2]

Or North vs South

Hobbs
Hutton
Richards
Tendulkar
Lara
Sobers
Knott
Imran
Marshall
Ambrose
Muralitharan

Richards
Smith
Bradman
Smith
Chappell
Kallis
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Warne
Steyn
McGrath

Though think the south is stronger than the north.

Think the other matchup is a bit closer so we can use that one.

 

[kyear2]

Actually think Murali and Warne may find themselves pounded really bad in these matches unless it's a spin track.

Fully agree, close to non factor

 

[subshakerz]

I believe the bats who will thrive in these games will be those with a strong technique but capable of strong counterattack too once bowlers get tired. Smith, Tendulkar are what I am thinking here.

Defensive bats like Hutton and Kallis will struggle to get going if they can't change the momentum and are subjected to constant pressure.

Risk taking bats like Viv and Lara will also unlikely get more than cameos most of the time.

 

[kyear2]

Thanks. For the sake of the exercise, let's use these two teams.

I think they are somewhat evenly matched. I do see captaincy playing a role.

We don't know much, if anything about Bradman's captaincy. Don't know if @peterhrt , @Line and Length or @ the names escapes me, can add something there.

Imran's biggest influences came off the field with selection and grooming, that doesn't factor in here.

Never heard either being mentioned as excellent tacticians.

 

[kyear2]

Thanks. For the sake of the exercise, let's use these two teams.

I think they are somewhat evenly matched. I do see captaincy playing a role.

Noted. As follows

PEWS XI
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sunil Gavaskar
Walter Hammond^
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara^
Sir Garfield Sobers^ (5)
Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan* (3)
Shane Warne (4)
Sir Curtly Ambrose (2)
Glenn McGrath (1)

Kyear XI
Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir I.V. A. Richards^
Steven Smith
Jacques Kallis^ (5)
Allan Knott+
Sir Richard Hadlee (2)
Malcom Marshall (1)
Dale Steyn (3)
Muttiah Muralitharan (4)

 

[kyear2]

Which wins and why?

As Subz asks, how will it okay out?

 

[subshakerz]

Noted. As follows

PEWS XI
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sunil Gavaskar
Walter Hammond^
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara^
Sir Garfield Sobers^ (5)
Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan* (3)
Shane Warne (4)
Sir Curtly Ambrose (2)
Glenn McGrath (1)

Kyear XI
Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir I.V. A. Richards^
Steven Smith
Jacques Kallis^ (5)
Allan Knott+
Sir Richard Hadlee (2)
Malcom Marshall (1)
Dale Steyn (3)
Muttiah Muralitharan (4)

Honestly this is closer than we give credit for given the way these teams are laid out.

If it's a single game, it may come down to a passage of play. Maybe the Bradman factor plays into a longer series though.

 

[Coronis]

We don't know much, if anything about Bradman's captaincy. Don't know if @peterhrt , @Line and Length or @ the names escapes me, can add something there.

Imran's biggest influences came off the field with selection and grooming, that doesn't factor in here.

Never heard either being mentioned as excellent tacticians.

Well he’s the only captain to come back from a 0-2 series deficit, after tactically reversing the batting order in the third test. And we also know he was extremely competitive and that clashed with some of his players. In a high level highly competitive series with guys who really want to win his uncompromising style is likely to be an advantage.

 

[Slifer]

I believe the bats who will thrive in these games will be those with a strong technique but capable of strong counterattack too once bowlers get tired. Smith, Tendulkar are what I am thinking here.

Defensive bats like Hutton and Kallis will struggle to get going if they can't change the momentum and are subjected to constant pressure.

Risk taking bats like Viv and Lara will also unlikely get more than cameos most of the time.

In a single game, any of the great bats can either do well or utterly fail, it only takes one ball. None of them have ever faced a complete attack of 3 great pacemen + a great spinner. Tendulkar didn't do particular great vs any of the great attacks of his time. He did manage a great knock here or there. But so too did Brian.

The closest (that I can recall) coincidentally would've been what Walcott faced in back to back series in the 50s: Australia with Lindwall, Miller, Johnston and Benaud or Eng with Trueman, Statham, Lock and Laker.

 

[subshakerz]

Here's how I see them doing in a series in England, subject to revision:

PEWS XI
Sir Leonard Hutton - Averages early 30s, a bit conservative and will end up getting stuck on the crease but will see off the new ball
Sunil Gavaskar - Same as above
Walter Hammond^ - Averages early-40s, mostly struggles at no.3 but manages a couple of awesome tons that jump the average up
Sachin Tendulkar - Averages late-30s, fairly consistent but doesnt dominate any innings, lets other bat around him mostly but is able to pick off the bowlers who are more worn down
Brian Lara^ - Averages mid 20s - Some great cameos but exposed against great pace
Sir Garfield Sobers^ (5) - Average 50s, takes advantage of no.6 position and regularly counterattacks
Adam Gilchrist+ - Averages mid-20s, a bit out of his depth but some hard hitting 50s here or there
Imran Khan* (3) - Raises his game as he does against top opp, ends up near or at top of wicket list though a bit higher bowling average in mid 20s and a couple of, low scoring with the bat but manages to help draw a game
Shane Warne (4) - Averages in the 30s with the ball, a couple of penetrative late match spell but nothing much else
Sir Curtly Ambrose (2) Averages in the early 20s, very restrictive but not especially high wicket-taking
Glenn McGrath (1) Averages in the late teens and a consistent new ball star and key wicket-taker

Kyear XI
Sir John Hobbs - Averages late 30s, pinned down but hard to dismiss
Barry Richards^ - Hard to tell
Sir Donald Bradman* - Averages in the late 60s, gets slowly more figured out by the end of the series based on a Ambrose-McGrath offside chokehold
Sir I.V. A. Richards^ - Averages in the mid-30s, some great cameo knocks but eventually one risk too many
Steven Smith - Averages in the late 30s, adapts and is generally consistent
Jacques Kallis^ (5) - Averages in the early 30s,
Allan Knott+ - Gritty knocks, stellar with the gloves
Sir Richard Hadlee (2) - Averages in the mid-20s, very good with the new ball but loses sting as third seamer
Malcom Marshall (1) Averages in the early 20s, consistently hostile and star performer
Dale Steyn (3) - Averages in 30s, weak link in England, given new ball sometimes in the series which clicks to accomodate for some wayward spells
Muttiah Muralitharan (4) - Similar to Warne but has one spell where he threatens to run through the side in the 4th innings