Pace Quartet or Spinner

[kyear2]

I understand.

However Harper is nowhere as good as Lyon or Swann who are matchwinners at least once most series when conditions suit.

If you have Hadlee, Marshall, Steyn, McGrath facing your average teams, honestly don't see much a fourth seamer will do that the three other seamers can't accomplish among themselves pacewise.

Whereas I definitely see Swann and Lyon being useful outside of three ATG pacers in limited but common scenarios if the pitch is dead and you need stock overs or in the SC, enough to justify their inclusion.

I don't disagree.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah but then this logic defeats all our hypothetical ATG XI selections.

It doesn't because it's supposed to cover any and all scenarios. So we select the team that would be most effective anywhere and vs anyone.

 

[subshakerz]

You are specific about one half of the equation, but not the other. Who are the 4 worldclass pace bowlers?

Also, do you have meaningful part-timers (even a batting allrounder), of either pace or spin variety)?

Finally, what sort of rules/enforcement is in place, in relation to over rate?

Worldclass as in minimum Colin Croft quality.

Part timers yes, ARs no.

Over rate applies.

 

[subshakerz]

It doesn't because it's supposed to cover any and all scenarios. So we select the team that would be most effective anywhere and vs anyone.

I am doing the same here, but for a bowling attack only and versus normal teams.

 

[kyear2]

I am doing the same here, but for a bowling attack only and versus normal teams.

And what he's saying, and I agree is that there isn't always a scenario where spin is required and it's almost the exception not the rule.

It's can almost be seen in a utilitarian manner where you're looking to rest or rotate bowlers or assist with the over rate in some conditions.

 

[Coronis]

Worldclass as in minimum Colin Croft quality.

Part timers yes, ARs no.

Over rate applies.

lol. Colin Croft is your definition of world class? So almost every pacer playing international cricket currently is not world class? What a crock

 

[subshakerz]

lol. Colin Croft is your definition of world class? So almost every pacer playing international cricket currently is not world class? What a crock

Anyone who maintains top class performance for only a short period is what I call 'worldclass'. So Croft, Shoaib, etc.

Those who maintain top class performance for longer period becomes greats/AVTGs. A handful of them become ATGs.

Today, I would consider Bumrah, Jamieson worldclass. I consider Cummins and Rabada already greats/AVTGs.

 

[shortpitched713]

Croft is way better than Swann or Lyon (not going to get into whether he had a better "career").

 

[subshakerz]

Croft is way better than Swann or Lyon (not going to get into whether he had a better "career").

Yes he is. The question is does he add more value to a bowling attack that already has three pacers of the same quality though versus a quality spinner who offers something different.

 

[shortpitched713]

Possibly these days, if the team has any ambitions of winning WTC, then you might just keep an inferior spinner for that reason.

If you have a Joe Root / Viv Richards level part time spinner who is willing to put in meaningful quick overs, maybe you could just about get away with a 4 man pace attack though from the over rate perspective. Dunno, it's a weird scenario.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Possibly these days, if the team has any ambitions of winning WTC, then you might just keep an inferior spinner for that reason.

If you have a Joe Root / Viv Richards level part time spinner who is willing to put in meaningful quick overs, maybe you could just about get away with a 4 man pace attack though from the over rate perspective. Dunno, it's a weird scenario.

With Ravindra and Phillips being almost genuine allrounders, 4 seamers is fine for NZ.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It doesn't because it's supposed to cover any and all scenarios. So we select the team that would be most effective anywhere and vs anyone.

If this is the scenario we're going with I would definitely go with the 4 quicks. Unless your home games are on excessively turning wickets on balance the 4 quicks will win you more games.

Probably wouldn't make the WTC finals because of over-rate penalties though