Flem274*
123/5
It isn't
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Was Dan Vettori better than the stats suggest
- Thread starter Jumno
- Start date
TheJediBrah
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Yeah it's the opposite
Migara
International Coach
Well it's not the case. The international teams from SC, the selection is biased on playing pace. There are enough FC batsmen who will take bowlers like Root for lunch every day. But they are pretty poor against pace and rarely selected, unless they are all rounders or keepers.
TheJediBrah
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You said part-time spin might work in other countries, not the SC. Evidence overwhelmingly suggests the opposite. Part time spinners tend to be more effective in the SC than elsewhere, it happens nearly every tour.
Same goes for specialist spinners. Every time England, Australia, NZ etc. tour Asia some domestic spinner (or several) come in and do better than they do at home (if they even get a game at home, which they usually don't). And that's bowling at Asian batsmen in their home conditions. eg. Ajaz Patel, Steve O'Keefe, Kuhnemann, Murphy and the bunch that England just took to India
Maybe you're saying that part time spinners from Asia don't do so well playing for Asian teams? I assume that would be because there are more specialist spinners from the SC so you don't need part-timers as much. Either way you'd expect they would still be far more effective in the SC in more spin friendly conditions, against players not used to those conditions.
No, maybe it's debatable who was the better batsman, but it's not debatable who was the best number 8. Vettori just seemed very comfortable there and averaged 40 in that position.
Mahmood hardly ever batted at 8 and Pollock doesn't even have any 100s batting there, whilst Vettori has 4.
It's kinda pot luck/pitch dependent how a part-time spinners goes in SC.
A pitch may be very helpful to a spinner who can put a lot of revs on the ball, or one that bowls a little quicker, or favours one with a high release point etc. If a team has a part time spinner that can do one of those things, then on the right pitch he might out bowl some of the main spinners who can't.
You don't really get those conditions in most other countries except maybe on some day 4 or 5 pitches where a part-time spinner can suddenly look just as dangerous as a front line one.
A pitch may be very helpful to a spinner who can put a lot of revs on the ball, or one that bowls a little quicker, or favours one with a high release point etc. If a team has a part time spinner that can do one of those things, then on the right pitch he might out bowl some of the main spinners who can't.
You don't really get those conditions in most other countries except maybe on some day 4 or 5 pitches where a part-time spinner can suddenly look just as dangerous as a front line one.
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Aritro
International Regular
Haha, yeah. I was fkn baffled reading the first few posts in the thread as I mostly remember 00s Kiwi posters roundly rimming him. I've always had the impression he was some sort of generational great since then.
Migara
International Coach
They are not bowling to the best players of spin that the country have to offer. Get SENA part time spinners (or even main ones) in a FC team in Asia, they will get annihilated by batsmen who could not cut the international side because they are poor against pace, but exceptional against spin. (of course if it is not Warne or a similar quality spinner).
Migara
International Coach
Cannot say Vettori is head and shoulders above anyone. Boucher, Holder, Cairns, Prior are definitely better bats and moved up. Vettori was stuck at 8 because he was poorer higher up
You're just making up arguments now as no one said Vettori was a better batsman than any of those names. Also all you did by posting those averages is back up the claim that Vettori was a great number 8.
Prior didn't "move up" from 8. He was always a number 7 and most of the times he ended up batting at 8 was because a nightwatchman went in before him.
Also Holder "moved up" because WI don't have decent Test Wicket keeper batsman, and how is Cairns meant to bat at 8 if Vettori is already there?
*A lot of the names on that list are actually number 7s who batted occasionally at 8 because of Nightwatchman going in before them. Look at the number of Matches and number of Innings and if the numbers are very close and it represents only a small percentage of the total Tests played, then it's because they are number 7s.
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TheJediBrah
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None of this makes any sense
How do you explain most SENA spinners being more effective in Asia, against specialist Asian batsmen, than they are at home? The only thing I can think of is doctored pitches for touring SENA teams bringing spinners into the game more
Migara
International Coach
I think you don't read what I have written. SC test teams give extra ordinary weight for playing pace even in the expense of ability to play spin. Hence test teams usually are poorer than FC teams in playing spin. Get Root or Clarke in Ranji dust bowls, they will get hammered to submission by Sidhu likes or Afridi likes.
shortpitched713
International Captain
Comparing lower order bats like a number 8 by position is absolutely asinine. Literally all are being picked on more than just batting and have a critical supplementary skillset, and so could be shuttled up or down the lineup depending on team balance needs.
Coronis
International Coach
Yeah you can.
For sure though, this stat query definitely disproves your previous examples
TheJediBrah
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Lmao great fanfic
Especially like the part where they pick a batting line-up to play pace but then the wicket is a slow turner so the opposition bowls 80% of their overs with spin
Migara
International Coach
LMAO. As long as you can demonstrate SC batting lineups change significantly home vs away you are shooting empties.
TheJediBrah
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Iol what are you on about now. How would SC teams playing away be relevant at all to what we are talking about
Migara
International Coach
Meh, my brain hurts to the level that I have to dumb down.
TheJediBrah
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Physically impossible
Migara
International Coach
I have to dumb down to the level that dumbing down is not physical