Best Attack

[kyear2]

@kyear2
Jeremy Coney and Jeff Crowe for Hadlee (good slips). Ian Smith was also a worldclass keeper.

Coney is the one I always want to reference that I never remember.

 

[centurymaker]

Sobers is the most useful.

Post-Gilchrist, Hadlee is more useful than Imran imo.

No.
Sober is picked as a batter, don't need his bowling in an ATG contest as he will take wickets at his bowling avg of 34 if not worse, in order words he will concede significantly more runs per wicket than the 4 ATG bowlers avging 20-24. You wouldn't want him to bowl much.

4 ATGs don't need a significantly inferior support bowler as the 5th bowler, if they need one at all. It will be mostly counterproductive as he will take the pressure off.

So he is definitely NOT more useful than Hadlee or Imran as their batting runs will count no matter what. And so a tailend partnership of 50 led by Imran or Hadlee can be quite decisive. Imran avgs 37 with the bat while Hadlee avg 27. Those runs and partnerships at the tailend in a normal 250-300 run contest are vital and often the difference between winning and losing. For instance, getting bowled out for 220 vs 280.

So in terms of usefulness-
Bowling AR > Batting AR

Even if Imran was facing ATG attack, you'd still expect him to avg 20-25 with the bat which is again significant in a ATG contest, which is likely to be lower scoring more often than not. While Sobers bowling wise will be redundant against ATG batters so you wouldn't bowl him much at all.

So obviously bowling ARs like Imran and Hadlee are more useful than Sobers or Kallis in an ATG or high quality contest.

 

[reyrey]

10 years is your pick. Doesn't matter what length you want to pick as a peak though. 3 of the 4 bowlers with the best peaks ever are in this poll. He doesn't match them over whatever length you want to pick.

I do give him credit for longevity. But Hadlee and Imran are both better bowlers with similar longevity. They both had rockier starts, and while diabetes may explain why he performed worse, we are looking to pick the players who performed the best.

The numbers over those 10 years would suggest he does and he even has a better average than McGrath in that same decade.

 

[kyear2]

The numbers over those 10 years would suggest he does and he even has a better average than McGrath in that same decade.

But you are excluding Wasim's bad begining and end while including McGrath's.

 

[reyrey]

But you are excluding Wasim's bad begining and end while including McGrath's.

I already gave my explanation why I excluded Wasims beginning and end. None of those reasons apply to McGrath

 

[Bolo.]

The numbers over those 10 years would suggest he does and he even has a better average than McGrath in that same decade.

The numbers over those 10 years also suggest that he was a better bat than Hobbs for that same decade, but it doesn't make him better overall.

Best peaks are Marshall, Hadlee and Imran from this list anyway. I think Mcgrath and Steyn also had better peaks, but it's more debatable.

 

[subshakerz]

But you are excluding Wasim's bad begining and end while including McGrath's.

There is a good case to remove Wasims early teenage prodigy years.

 

[reyrey]

The numbers over those 10 years also suggest that he was a better bat than Hobbs for that same decade, but it doesn't make him better overall.

Best peaks are Marshall, Hadlee and Imran from this list anyway. I think Mcgrath and Steyn also had better peaks, but it's more debatable.

I didn't speak of a "peak", that was your word. I gave a 10 year period where Wasim bowled to a level that put him on the same level as some of the other bowlers in the poll.

Out of interest what 10 year period are Marshall's, Hadlee's and Imran's 10 year "peaks"?

 

[Bolo.]

There is a good case to remove Wasims early teenage prodigy years.

Na. All this would accomplish would be to not give him his due on longevity. His record was fine as a teenager. Averaged the same as his career for the first couple years. Record got a bit sketchy in early 20s, but that's a pretty similar age and career length to most of the other ATGs.

 

[Bolo.]

I didn't speak of a "peak", that was your word. I gave a 10 year period where Wasim bowled to a level that put him on the same level as some of the other bowlers in the poll.

Out of interest what 10 year period are Marshall's, Hadlee's and Imran's 10 year "peaks"?

I'm not really concerned with Mcrgath (or Steyn) in this context. Wasim had batting and variety compared to them.

81, 78, 80.

None of them had exactly 10 year peaks, but if you look at their best 10, they are special.

 

[reyrey]

Na. All this would accomplish would be to not give him his due on longevity. His record was fine as a teenager. Averaged the same as his career for the first couple years. Record got a bit sketchy in early 20s, but that's a pretty similar age and career length to most of the other ATGs.

That's because most of those Tests were against Sri Lanka

 

[Bolo.]

That's because most of those Tests were against Sri Lanka

A cheap 10 fer against NZ had a lot more to do with it. Ignore if you want. I think he looks better by including.

 

[Coronis]

Cool to see this argument used for other players apart from Jimmy.

 

[kyear2]

No.
Sober is picked as a batter, don't need his bowling in an ATG contest as he will take wickets at his bowling avg of 34 if not worse, in order words he will concede significantly more runs per wicket than the 4 ATG bowlers avging 20-24. You wouldn't want him to bowl much.

4 ATGs don't need a significantly inferior support bowler as the 5th bowler, if they need one at all. It will be mostly counterproductive as he will take the pressure off.

So he is definitely NOT more useful than Hadlee or Imran as their batting runs will count no matter what. And so a tailend partnership of 50 led by Imran or Hadlee can be quite decisive. Imran avgs 37 with the bat while Hadlee avg 27. Those runs and partnerships at the tailend in a normal 250-300 run contest are vital and often the difference between winning and losing. For instance, getting bowled out for 220 vs 280.

So in terms of usefulness-
Bowling AR > Batting AR

Even if Imran was facing ATG attack, you'd still expect him to avg 20-25 with the bat which is again significant in a ATG contest, which is likely to be lower scoring more often than not. While Sobers bowling wise will be redundant against ATG batters so you wouldn't bowl him much at all.

So obviously bowling ARs like Imran and Hadlee are more useful than Sobers or Kallis in an ATG or high quality contest.

This is so inconsistent.

So Basically for the first time ever, you're going to go through a series with only your 4 main bowlers performing with no need for a fifth. So yes, that should work swimmingly. I don't think some here has ever watched a cricket match.

So Sobers / Kallis bowling averages are too high to make an pact, but Imran's average buoyed by not outs and the like will work perfectly well. Again, this is the equivalent of chosing Carl Hooper (average not quality) to make an impact in these conditions, while sacrificing the bowling to do so, Hadlee sure, Imran not worth it. Both have diminishing value, one doesn't require a down grade in primary skill to be there.

Sobers and or Kallis will have to bowl because you can't go an entire series with just 4 bowlers, they wouldn't last. Sober's impact goes far beyond, he will come on to relieve the bowlers while keeping things quiet, his era is better than anyone's here. Not to mention he has as many 5 wicket hauls as Imran has hundreds and they were much more impactful towards the match results.

Sobers role as a bowler would be the act as the 4th seamer on a fast pitch and on a turner, he's either the 2nd spinner, or the 3rd seamer allowing the selection of a 2nd spinner. That's invaluable.

Sobers / Kallis would also be the best slip fielder on a team where the bowlers selected all got the vast majority of their victims caught behind the wicket. They would be situated at 2nd which get the most and most difficult chances, not to mention standing at 1st to Warne, where he too got a **** load of wickets. That too adds value. How this evades you-all is a mystery.

And least we forget the only two collaborated AT teams selected by historians and former cricketers, Cricinfo where Sobers was a unanimous selection over Imran (50 - 0), and Wisden, which Sobers also made and Imran again missed out. So I guess it isn't so clear cut after all.

Top 4 batsman, most versatile bowler and top tier slip fielder, who makes the team as a batsman alone mind you. Yeah, what possible benefit could he possibly have. Wtf.

 

[kyear2]

Just for the record btw, 8 players made both the Wisden and Cricinfo teams, if you include ours, it's 7

Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Marshall
Warne

 

[subshakerz]

This is so inconsistent.

So Basically for the first time ever, you're going to go through a series with only your 4 main bowlers performing with no need for a fifth. So yes, that should work swimmingly. I don't think some here has ever watched a cricket match.

So Sobers / Kallis bowling averages are too high to make an pact, but Imran's average buoyed by not outs and the like will work perfectly well. Again, this is the equivalent of chosing Carl Hooper (average not quality) to make an impact in these conditions, while sacrificing the bowling to do so, Hadlee sure, Imran not worth it. Both have diminishing value, one doesn't require a down grade in primary skill to be there.

Sobers and or Kallis will have to bowl because you can't go an entire series with just 4 bowlers, they wouldn't last. Sober's impact goes far beyond, he will come on to relieve the bowlers while keeping things quiet, his era is better than anyone's here. Not to mention he has as many 5 wicket hauls as Imran has hundreds and they were much more impactful towards the match results.

Sobers role as a bowler would be the act as the 4th seamer on a fast pitch and on a turner, he's either the 2nd spinner, or the 3rd seamer allowing the selection of a 2nd spinner. That's invaluable.

Let's make this simple:

Sobers/Kallis' role is just to give the bowlers a rest unless its a square turner for Sobers.

We have already established that thanks to the bowling quality of the main four ATG bowlers, these will be low scoring affairs.

Hence the role for the 5th bowler will be rare and likely for a few overs here and there. There may be several tests in a series where they may not even be bowled at all. In fact, 2000s Aus frequently just had three bowlers bowl out teams. Four ATG bowlers is already overkill in the vast majority of games.

Whereas the bowling AR has to bat every innings when runs are very important.

How is it not clear that the low the scoring the game, the more the bowling AR is important?

Just for the record btw, 8 players made both the Wisden and Cricinfo teams, if you include ours, it's 7

Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Marshall
Warne

Irrelevant red herring.

 

[Jumno]

The top 3 pace bowlers of all time in order.

 

[kyear2]

Let's make this simple:

Sobers/Kallis' role is just to give the bowlers a rest unless its a square turner for Sobers.

We have already established that thanks to the bowling quality of the main four ATG bowlers, these will be low scoring affairs.

Hence the role for the 5th bowler will be rare and likely for a few overs here and there. There may be several tests in a series where they may not even be bowled at all. In fact, 2000s Aus frequently just had three bowlers bowl out teams. Four ATG bowlers is already overkill in the vast majority of games.

Whereas the bowling AR has to bat every innings when runs are very important.

How is it not clear that the low the scoring the game, the more the bowling AR is important?



Irrelevant red herring.

The value of Sobers as a batting all rounder is the versatility and economy he provides while making the team as a batsman alone, and being an elite slip fielder.
The bowling all rounder, if one plays is hit and miss, but the way you tell it is scoring 30 every match, which by the way none of them have ever done in a series.


It's very relevant, because to hear you say it, Imran's an automatic pick in any XI, and I'm alone on the biased hate train. He's not nearly an automatic, because he isn't one of the best 3 bowlers and it is a stepdown in the primary skills to force him into the team.

The bowling all rounders fascination and the elevation of its status began and remains here, so don't pretend that it's me going against the grain.

But apparently you think you need to correct me. Hadlee's easily the better cricketer as he gives you most if the batting while being better in the primary discipline that counts.

 

[subshakerz]

The value of Sobers as a batting all rounder is the versatility and economy he provides while making the team as a batsman alone, and being an elite slip fielder.
The bowling all rounder, if one plays is hit and miss, but the way you tell it is scoring 30 every match, which by the way none of them have ever done in a series.


It's very relevant, because to hear you say it, Imran's an automatic pick in any XI, and I'm alone on the biased hate train. He's not nearly an automatic, because he isn't one of the best 3 bowlers and it is a stepdown in the primary skills to force him into the team.

The bowling all rounders fascination and the elevation of its status began and remains here, so don't pretend that it's me going against the grain.

But apparently you think you need to correct me. Hadlee's easily the better cricketer as he gives you most if the batting while being better in the primary discipline that counts.

This must be the 10th post in a row you haven't addressed the argument of ATG games = lower scoring = lower order runs critical, 5th bowler not so much = bowling ARs more valuable. Instead you dance around it.

What part of that argument is wrong?

 

[ankitj]

How many wickets would Sobers have taken if he debuted around the time Andy Roberts debuted? Effectively a career overlapping the crop of great West Indian pace bowlers.