Best Attack

[kyear2]

I don't think so, he was just voted the 4th greatest Test bowler of all time in L&L's poll. It's just that here he's being compared exclusively to other elite bowlers, and he suffers slightly when batting is also factored in.

But that's exactly my point.

I'm personally conflicted between options 1 and 4.

Surprised about Wasim's votes, but he was included as he's somewhat like Graeme Smith, his variety and overall tool kit would be valuable. Plus he did make some all time teams and it's not like Steyn's or Imran's records are perfect either, and for some reason Ambrose doesn't quite fit into these combinations.

 

[howitzer]

But that's exactly my point.

I'm personally conflicted between options 1 and 4.

Surprised about Wasim's votes, but he was included as he's somewhat like Graeme Smith, his variety and overall tool kit would be valuable. Plus he did make some all time teams and it's not like Steyn's or Imran's records are perfect either, and for some reason Ambrose doesn't quite fit into these combinations.

Tall bowler who mostly bowled very accurately a bit back of a length but with a good bouncer and yorker option too. It's just that most of us think that McGrath was a bit better version of that. I don't agree with people who think McGrath and Hadlee are similar bowlers as they actually had pretty differing MO's, McGrath and Ambrose probably are too similar for me though. It's also the reason I tend to leave Garner, rather than Holding out of my WI XI despite rating the former slightly higher. Garner overlaps with Ambrose a lot whereas Holding offers something neither Ambrose or Marshall really do.

 

[Coronis]

But that's exactly my point.

I'm personally conflicted between options 1 and 4.

Surprised about Wasim's votes, but he was included as he's somewhat like Graeme Smith, his variety and overall tool kit would be valuable. Plus he did make some all time teams and it's not like Steyn's or Imran's records are perfect either, and for some reason Ambrose doesn't quite fit into these combinations.

Huh? What do you mean?

He’s never been considered quite on the level of those top 3 (on CW) and his ranking has been a battle with Ambrose generally.

Especially considering you’re asking what’s the best attack including non bowling factors, its very unlikely an attack with him would be picked when he’s not a Marshall/McGrath/Hadlee with the ball or an Imran/Hadlee/Wasim/Marshall with the bat.

 

[reyrey]

Wasim, Marshall, Warne, McGrath.

But that's exactly my point.

I'm personally conflicted between options 1 and 4.

Surprised about Wasim's votes, but he was included as he's somewhat like Graeme Smith, his variety and overall tool kit would be valuable. Plus he did make some all time teams and it's not like Steyn's or Imran's records are perfect either, and for some reason Ambrose doesn't quite fit into these combinations.

I went with the Wasim option, mostly because if a batsman saw off Marshall and McGrath then are Hadlee, Imran or Steyn really gonna pose them any new challenges? IMO not really, but Wasim most definitely would.

 

[kyear2]

Wasim, Marshall, Warne, McGrath.



I went with the Wasim option, mostly because if a batsman saw off Marshall and McGrath then are Hadlee, Imran or Steyn really gonna pose them any new challenges? IMO not really, but Wasim most definitely would.

Outside of the change in angle, the other 3 are all capable of presenting challenges, but I guess Wasim's would be a unique one.

As I said earlier filling in Wasim is analogous to bringing in Smith for his left handed aggression, catching and captaincy. All added value, but worth the potential downgrade? Though admittedly Wasim is higher rated than Smith.

Imran to me is a little like bringing in Hammond for Sachin. Both still top 10 and quality players, though still a perceived, if slight down grade. Yes there's an offset, Imran being possibly the greatest no 8 ever, Hammond possibly the greatest 1st slip ever.
It is a quandary.

Order of skill as bowlers. (Mine and our ratings)
Hadlee
Steyn
Imran

Order by batting
Imran
Hadlee
Steyn

Steyn and Imran however were more renowned for reverse swing and were quicker, though neither set the world alight away from home. Though Steyn was better in India and the averaged about the same in Australia, but against much stronger opposition on flatter decks. England though, is a hole in his record.

Almost every option presents a compromise.

Except possibly the 4th, and that has only one vote, lol.

 

[Bolo.]

All 3 are from the same era, unlikely but possible the opposition just wasn't that great? It's like chosing all batsmen from the '30's.

I don't reckon anyone thinks it was a weak era on the whole. Weakish bats, maybe. They complement each other well, and are all good enough (including their batting) that a minor downgrade on account of era wouldn't matter too much.

 

[Bolo.]

Tall bowler who mostly bowled very accurately a bit back of a length but with a good bouncer and yorker option too. It's just that most of us think that McGrath was a bit better version of that. I don't agree with people who think McGrath and Hadlee are similar bowlers as they actually had pretty differing MO's, McGrath and Ambrose probably are too similar for me though. It's also the reason I tend to leave Garner, rather than Holding out of my WI XI despite rating the former slightly higher. Garner overlaps with Ambrose a lot whereas Holding offers something neither Ambrose or Marshall really do.

There's more overlap between Garner/Ambrose/Mcgrath, but there is a lot between Hadlee and Mcgrath anyway. RFM, accurate channel bowlers, not handy with reverse. It's the worst overlap of bowlers in this poll, even if they complement each other in some ways. I wouldn't play both unless you think they are a big upgrade on someone with a different skillset.

 

[kyear2]

I don't reckon anyone thinks it was a weak era on the whole. Weakish bats, maybe. They complement each other well, and are all good enough (including their batting) that a minor downgrade on account of era wouldn't matter too much.

If you have Imran, Marshall and Warne, you don't need more batting with Hadlee... You're allowed to chose at least one just based on bowling, being their primary job and all.

 

[kyear2]

There's more overlap between Garner/Ambrose/Mcgrath, but there is a lot between Hadlee and Mcgrath anyway. RFM, accurate channel bowlers, not handy with reverse. It's the worst overlap of bowlers in this poll, even if they complement each other in some ways. I wouldn't play both unless you think they are a big upgrade on someone with a different skillset.

But aren't they? Clearly recognized as the best 3 ever

 

[Coronis]

I feel like Hadlee still gets somewhat underrated here because “no reverse” and reducing his pace from a tearaway youngster amongst other things. Marshall is generally seen as peak and McGrath as the perfect accurate line and length bowler (which he was), but Hadlee was very good at this too and able to generate movement both in the air and off the pitch.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Gillespie, George, Harrity, McIntyre

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Imran being possibly the greatest no 8 ever,

No that's Dan Vettori by miles

 

[Bolo.]

If you have Imran, Marshall and Warne, you don't need more batting with Hadlee... You're allowed to chose at least one just based on bowling, being their primary job and all.

You always need extra batting. Otherwise just pick Marshall, Mcgrath and Steyn for what should be the strongest complementary attack.

But aren't they? Clearly recognized as the best 3 ever

Recognised as the best 3 bowlers, not players. Imran exists.

Even just in bowling, I don't think there is a big gap. Maybe for someone like Akram or worse. But for Steyn and to a lesser extent Imran, the gap is close enough for me to sacrifice a tiny bit of quality in favour of variety.

 

[Bolo.]

I feel like Hadlee still gets somewhat underrated here because “no reverse” and reducing his pace from a tearaway youngster amongst other things. Marshall is generally seen as peak and McGrath as the perfect accurate line and length bowler (which he was), but Hadlee was very good at this too and able to generate movement both in the air and off the pitch.

I don't underrate Hadlee. He was plenty good without reverse.

I do think that picking an entire lineup without good reverse would be a mistake though. There are plenty of times (conditions and ball dependent) when everything else is extremely ineffective in relation.

 

[kyear2]

You always need extra batting. Otherwise just pick Marshall, Mcgrath and Steyn for what should be the strongest complementary attack.
Recognised as the best 3 bowlers, not players. Imran exists.

Even just in bowling, I don't think there is a big gap. Maybe for someone like Akram or worse. But for Steyn and to a lesser extent Imran, the gap is close enough for me to sacrifice a tiny bit of quality in favour of variety.

I guess that's where we disagree. Think there is a gap between Hadlee and Imran as bowlers, and since Hadlee already is a viable cover for no. 8, the main question as you out it is variety. And I don't want to keep repeating this but outside of Pakistan and minnow SL, Imran didn't excel at an ATG level in any other country. So either every game is in Pakistan or there's a downgrade.. if you go Steyn, less of a step down, but then the referenced drop off in batting. But with Marshall and Warne, is it a liability and is it worth having the variety over Hadlee.
Or do you keep Hadlee, but drop McGrath and bring in Steyn for the variety but still keep the solid no. 8.

 

[ataraxia]

Imran being possibly the greatest no 8 ever

Man averaged more than Gavaskar as captain (in 48 tests) and you call him a great no. 8?

I wonder how you'd view Imran if he wasn't picked until his bowling peak, and his career batting average was 46.5. Would you still cry "wah, not outs, he actually deserves to average 30"? I surely hope not.

 

[Coronis]

Man averaged more than Gavaskar as captain (in 48 tests) and you call him a great no. 8?

I wonder how you'd view Imran if he wasn't picked until his bowling peak, and his career batting average was 46.5. Would you still cry "wah, not outs, he actually deserves to average 30"? I surely hope not.

I’d say wah this bloke was **** until he got picked at 28 he’s basically Ryan Harris + Adam Voges

 

[Bolo.]

Hadlee and Mcgrath have a similar MO and I could go either way on bowling. Absolute no brainer for me due to batting.

Steyn and Imran have a similar MO, and while I rate Steyn ahead, it's not by nearly enough to cover the batting gap.

Steyn and Hadlee have got quite a lot of overlap in MO. Don't really want to pick both. Purely as bowlers, I'd go Marshall, Mcgrath,
Steyn. But you would be better off in both batting and bowling by ditching a bat for someone like Miller and playing Hadlee and Imran.

 

[ataraxia]

I’d say wah this bloke was **** until he got picked at 28 he’s basically Ryan Harris + Adam Voges

Except then he had the greatest bowling peak of all time while being an above-average specialist bat, I guess, in the process having a career of similar length (the sole difference being Imran started and finished later) to many ATG pacers.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall, McGrath, Imran, Warne.

Marshall best pacer ever.

McGrath best seamer ever.

Imran best with the old ball.

Warne best spinner.