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Cricket's most over rated players

Coronis

International Coach
Not totally true. Vogler and Faulkner both had great record in England as well; and with Schwarz, Sinclair and Llewellyn; you are pushing it a tad bit too far imo to call them a weak attack for their time. Vogler was well regarded as the best bowler back then; not to mention that saying English attack is better is a stretch. As for the average in England; that is surprisingly true for his contemporary Clem Hill and Warwick Armstrong as well.
Ok so completely ignore the actual facts from that series sure…. where the hell did Armstrong come from lol.

I want to be clear here, I’m not saying Hill is way ahead of Trumper, which is what you and a lot of other Trumper stans seem to think, I think they’re very close actually.

Lets look at their England tours. Hill played in England in 96 but yeah he was 19, picked prematurely and bombed it. Both were the same age, remember.


99 tour
Hill 3 matches 5 innings 301 @ 60.20 1 ton 2 fifties (Hill missed half the tour after complications from a tumor removal)
Trumper 5 matches 9 innings 280 runs @ 35.00 1 ton 1 fifty
02 tour
Hill 5 matches 8 innings 258 runs @ 36.85 1 ton 1 fifty
Trumper 5 matches 8 innings 247 runs @ 30.87 1 ton 1 fifty
05 tour
Hill 5 matches 9 innings 188 @ 20.88 1 fifty
Trumper 5 matches 8 innings 125 @ 17.85

Trumper toured England in 1909, Hill didn’t due to issues with the ACB (now Cricket Australia), which eventually led them both to boycotting the 1912 tour.

Hill in 96: 3 matches 6 innings 30 @ 5.00
Trumper in 09: 5 matches 9 innings 211 @ 26.37 1 fifty
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Ok so completely ignore the actual facts from that series sure…. where the hell did Armstrong come from lol.

I want to be clear here, I’m not saying Hill is way ahead of Trumper, which is what you and a lot of other Trumper stans seem to think, I think they’re very close actually.

Lets look at their England tours. Hill played in England in 96 but yeah he was 19, picked prematurely and bombed it. Both were the same age, remember.


99 tour
Hill 3 matches 5 innings 301 @ 60.20 1 ton 2 fifties (Hill missed half the tour after complications from a tumor removal)
Trumper 5 matches 9 innings 280 runs @ 35.00 1 ton 1 fifty
02 tour
Hill 5 matches 8 innings 258 runs @ 36.85 1 ton 1 fifty
Trumper 5 matches 8 innings 247 runs @ 30.87 1 ton 1 fifty
05 tour
Hill 5 matches 9 innings 188 @ 20.88 1 fifty
Trumper 5 matches 8 innings 125 @ 17.85

Trumper toured England in 1909, Hill didn’t due to issues with the ACB (now Cricket Australia), which eventually led them both to boycotting the 1912 tour.

Hill in 96: 3 matches 6 innings 30 @ 5.00
Trumper in 09: 5 matches 9 innings 211 @ 26.37 1 fifty
I mean, statistically so Hill had one great tour and one complete ****, while Trumpet had mostly average to below average ones with occasional wonders. And when did I exactly say Trumper was hugely superior to Hill again?? Trumper ranks 6th, Hill 8th among Aussie batsmen for me; overall Trumper 26, Hill 39. There numbers are very close, but for Pre WWI players, I actually give plenty of weightage to journalists and peer reviews, just because the game was much different back then, so much so I believe it's tough to get a complete picture by stats only. If you don't want to do that, completely fine by me, I can understand the reasoning; but if you do, damn he really got some really ****ing high praises universally from writers like Neville Cardus to contemporaries like Hill himself; he definitely seems to be something special.
On a side note, this Trumper and Hill situation kinda feels like a pretty War Richards vs Gavaskar feud.
 

Coronis

International Coach
I mean, statistically so Hill had one great tour and one complete ****, while Trumpet had mostly average to below average ones with occasional wonders. And when did I exactly say Trumper was hugely superior to Hill again?? Trumper ranks 6th, Hill 8th among Aussie batsmen for me; overall Trumper 26, Hill 39. There numbers are very close, but for Pre WWI players, I actually give plenty of weightage to journalists and peer reviews, just because the game was much different back then, so much so I believe it's tough to get a complete picture by stats only. If you don't want to do that, completely fine by me, I can understand the reasoning; but if you do, damn he really got some really ****ing high praises universally from writers like Neville Cardus to contemporaries like Hill himself; he definitely seems to be something special.
On a side note, this Trumper and Hill situation kinda feels like a pretty War Richards vs Gavaskar feud.
Trumper is easily an ATG in my book, with very little between him, Border, Waugh and Ponting; Harvey and Hill would be at the bottom of that tier.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
I literally said Trumper and Hill would be in the same tier, just Hill at the bottom of it alongside Harvey. Doesn't scream hugely superior to me.
 

Silver Silva

International Regular
I think Ian Healy was slightly overrated considering that he kept (Literally) Adam Gilchrist out the side till Gilly was 29 yet everybody picks Gilly in their all time Aussie side ahead of Healy.
 

Coronis

International Coach
I literally said Trumper and Hill would be in the same tier, just Hill at the bottom of it alongside Harvey. Doesn't scream hugely superior to me.
~13 batsman between them does. Thats like, the difference between Hobbs and Richards.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
~13 batsman between them does. Thats like, the difference between Hobbs and Richards.
Comeon now, the top is much more jam-packed and the difference keeps getting lower and lower as we go down; that's common sense. There are 13 batsmen between Patsy Hendren and Lindsay Hassett for me, and 13 between Don Bradman and Greg Chappell; one is clearly closer.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Vogler averaged 44 in that series. Faulkner averaged 51. Schwarz did pretty decently, but he was not a leggie lol. He was the only SA bowler to average below 39.9 in that series lol. The Australians piled on the runs. But yeah, good attack
Schwarz was the OG googly bowler of the RSA quartet lol. Don't trust everything that cricinfo says: he's listed as an offie because he was so much of a googly bowler that that was his stock delivery.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Overrated by CW XI

Boycott
Gavaskar
Smith
Kallis
Barrington
Jadeja
Khan
Watling
Ambrose
Laker
Verity


Underrated by CW XI

Greenidge
Sehwag
Dravid
Miandad
Border
Botham
Kapil
Knott
Akram
Trueman
Swann
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
Schwarz was the OG googly bowler of the RSA quartet lol. Don't trust everything that cricinfo says: he's listed as an offie because he was so much of a googly bowler that that was his stock delivery.
I suppose he did bowl "off-breaks" in the sense that he broke the ball from off to leg (against right-handed batters, anyway), but it'd really be less misleading if they split bowlers into wrist-spinners and finger-spinners (as they seem to for left-arm spinners).
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Overrated by CW XI

Boycott
Gavaskar
Smith
Kallis
Barrington
Jadeja
Khan
Watling
Ambrose
Laker
Verity


Underrated by CW XI

Greenidge
Sehwag
Dravid
Miandad
Border
Botham
Kapil
Knott
Akram
Trueman
Swann
Lol at Gavaskar in overrated.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
point me to his impact winning matches for India?
You really don't go winning around with one good pacer and a bunch of barely Test standard ones. Hardly his fault, but still some of his biggest contributions:

1) He almost single-handedly won India the 1971 WI series.

2) The 4th Oval Test of 1979, that was a tragic draw.

3) 236* vs WI, 1983; drew that one.

4) The 1985 series draw in Australia, he scored mammoth runs and India would had won all 3 with a slightly better bowling attack.

5) Gavaskar, alongside Chetan Chauhan; set the foundation for the historic Melbourne win in 1981, by scoring some hefty runs in the 2nd innings.

6) Again in the 1976 tour, he won India the 3rd Test alongside Vishwanath; and set India in a winning position in the 2nd Test, which they drew with 2 WI wickets remaining and India only batting one innings, which they would had grabbed with a bit better pace bowling support, despite the spinners doing excellent. A. K. A, he almost drew that series.

7) The 1971 England tour, while he didn't contribute greatly overall and in the win, without his fighting 50 in the 2nd innings of the 1st Test at Lord's, India would had lost that match. Was also India's best batsman in the 2nd match, which ended in a draw.

8) In the 1975 drawn NZ tour, scored a century in the only win, and chased down the target while on crease.

9) 1977 tour of Australia, scored a match winning century in the 3rd Melbourne Test. India could had won that series, as they gave a fighting, if not winning, target of 342 in Perth, due to again a century from Gavaskar and Amarnath in the 2nd innings (Amarnath was the real hero though, scored a century in the 1st innings as well) ; and lost by 2 wickets.

10) In the two victories of the Australian home series, scored 76 in the first and 123 in the 2nd.

11) In 1978 WI home series, was the highest scorer.

12) The Georgetown century against the quartet in 1983, to confirm a draw.

13) The 96 vs Pakistan in 1987, Bengaluru. A series in which every other game was a draw, an innings from the only defeat may sound strange, but it's highly rated as his best ever; in a rank Turner where everyone else failed. And if I am talking about lost cause fights against Pakistan, 1983 Faisalabad loss, his sole fighting 4th innings century against peak Imran deserves a mention, as does his dual century in the 3rd Karachi Test of 1978.
 
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Coronis

International Coach
Were you born thick or did you learn to be this way?
I don’t agree with his take necessarily but Gavaskar’s record in wins is truly anomalous statistically amongst top tier ATG batsmen.

23 matches 42 innings 1671 @ 43.97 6 tons 7 fifties (-7.15)

I only noticed one player with more runs in wins whose average also fell noticeably.

Vaughan 39 matches 66 innings 2285 @ 38.08 6 tons 9 fifties (-3.36)

another player who borders on ATG status I know of

McCabe 22 matches 31 innings 1273 @ 43.89 2 tons 10 fifties (-4.32)

No Indian who played in 3 or more of those 23 matches averaged over 50, most of these matches would’ve been won with excellent performances by the spinners (quartet + Yadav and Doshi) or Kapil.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
I don’t agree with his take necessarily but Gavaskar’s record in wins is truly anomalous statistically amongst top tier ATG batsmen.

23 matches 42 innings 1671 @ 43.97 6 tons 7 fifties (-7.15)

I only noticed one player with more runs in wins whose average also fell noticeably.

Vaughan 39 matches 66 innings 2285 @ 38.08 6 tons 9 fifties (-3.36)

another player who borders on ATG status I know of

McCabe 22 matches 31 innings 1273 @ 43.89 2 tons 10 fifties (-4.32)

No Indian who played in 3 or more of those 23 matches averaged over 50, most of these matches would’ve been won with excellent performances by the spinners (quartet + Yadav and Doshi) or Kapil.
Not saying it should count, but had India won the Oval Test of 1979, which they drew by 10 runs and 3 wickets remaining; his average rises to 48.59. But yeah, his best came in a lot of tough draws and losses (especially the latter against Pakistan).
 

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