Only 3

[subshakerz]

Malcolm is there, and I've also said I was close to either Bradman / Sobers and Marshall & McGrath. It's a coin flip.

Not for me, it's clearly bowlers first but can disagree.

 

[kyear2]

Not for me, it's clearly bowlers first but can disagree.

But you still haven't gone for the best two bowlers....

Stacking a tail has never proven to lead to winning it general success

 

[ataraxia]

But you still haven't gone for the best two bowlers....

Stacking a tail has never proven to lead to winning it general success

It's not a tail, it's a middle order.

(also yes it has)

 

[Coronis]

Takes one ball to dismiss a batsman and even the Don can have a bad series.

Sobers for me is a must, 2nd best player of all time and offers near unparalleled versatility.

?

If a bad series is ~400 runs in 4 matches I’ll take that every day of the week.

 

[kyear2]

This is what I love about football , they've determined which positions are more important and which don't move the needle and rank them accordingly. Running backs rack up stats, but they don't lead to victories and relies on the offensive line.linebackers rack up tackles, but same.
They look at what the successful teams have done and copies that template, or at least tries to replicate the shell of it.

We just look at stats. Yes there are instances where you need a bail out to salvage a draw, but if a team is continually counting on that, it's has bigger issues and not a great team.

80's West Indies, 2000's Australia, the subsequent SA team, teams that were as good as any ever, I look at what they did well, what separated them. Three top 5 pacers, good if not ATG support, aggression at the top and an alpha at 3 /4 and Insane catching support. They managed what they did with out that bowling all rounder, they wouldn't have without that no. 1 special pacer, that guy in the middle order and that catching support.
What is a variable, I believe one either needs a great spinner or 5th bowler to cover overs and the Windies just over rode that with a pipeline that's just not replicable.

I know very few agree, and we've gone down this road before and I'm rambling, so I'll just end it here.

 

[subshakerz]

But you still haven't gone for the best two bowlers....

Stacking a tail has never proven to lead to winning it general success

India of late have proven so. And I am assuming the rest of the players are minnow level so we can't ignore batting completely though emphasis is on the bowling.

And I have given my reasoning.

Hadlee is the best new ball bowler.

Imran the best old ball bowler. Covers all bowling bases. Plus he is a natural captain for a competitive side to play above their level.

 

[subshakerz]

This is what I love about football , they've determined which positions are more important and which don't move the needle and rank them accordingly. Running backs rack up stats, but they don't lead to victories and relies on the offensive line.linebackers rack up tackles, but same.
They look at what the successful teams have done and copies that template, or at least tries to replicate the shell of it.

We just look at stats. Yes there are instances where you need a bail out to salvage a draw, but if a team is continually counting on that, it's has bigger issues and not a great team.

80's West Indies, 2000's Australia, the subsequent SA team, teams that were as good as any ever, I look at what they did well, what separated them. Three top 5 pacers, good if not ATG support, aggression at the top and an alpha at 3 /4 and Insane catching support. They managed what they did with out that bowling all rounder, they wouldn't have without that no. 1 special pacer, that guy in the middle order and that catching support.
What is a variable, I believe one either needs a great spinner or 5th bowler to cover overs and the Windies just over rode that with a pipeline that's just not replicable.

I know very few agree, and we've gone down this road before and I'm rambling, so I'll just end it here.

Bringing up all of this is irrelevant frankly since we are talking about the nucleus of a team as your OP mentioned but not specifically an ATG side. I assume the rest of the team is as weak as possible to make these three players most important.

 

[Pothas]

The idea was that the rest of the players were at least decent. If they were all hopeless then I am definitely picking Sobers and Imran.

 

[subshakerz]

The idea was that the rest of the players were at least decent. If they were all hopeless then I am definitely picking Sobers and Imran.

Yeah but it kinda matters more about the rest of the bowlers. If you have the rest be Morkel level then maybe one ATG spearhead can work. If they are Alan Mullaly level like I am assuming I am definitely going with two pacers.

Whereas Bradman is worth two worldclass bats in your lineup.

 

[kyear2]

India of late have proven so. And I am assuming the rest of the players are minnow level so we can't ignore batting completely though emphasis is on the bowling.

And I have given my reasoning.

Hadlee is the best new ball bowler.

Imran the best old ball bowler. Covers all bowling bases. Plus he is a natural captain for a competitive side to play above their level.

1. To open up I said the team was at or just above the mean for test players

2. The best two new ball bowlers as we've had in literally every poll and not close were Marshall and McGrath, yes Hadlee has been a consistent 3rd but not especially close even in the recent bowling votes. Not saying he isn't a valid option, but he wasn't the best.

3. Imran wasn't ATG calibre over his career away from home, and we've consistently rated him the 8th best bowler so how is he the obvious 3rd option. He wasn't a great captain for a competitive side, he didn't set the fields and as I've heard from you and Smali, that it was Javed that made the strategic / field placing decisions. He was no more a great captain that Viv or Lloyd, and neither of them were they had great teams and Lloyd gets bonus points for deciding to go 4 horsemen.

4. And re your first point, you're not competing with ATG teams if your top order consistently fails to the point you need bailing out by the tail and you're not as dominant home and away. Bumrah though is a great equalizer.

 

[kyear2]

Bringing up all of this is irrelevant frankly since we are talking about the nucleus of a team as your OP mentioned but not specifically an ATG side. I assume the rest of the team is as weak as possible to make these three players most important.

Where was that stated.

And we're taking about what's required to build a great team, not look good on paper, so that's what you look towards.

We've taken this bat deep requirement to crazy levels not represented by reality. Marshall and Warne both proved to be more than good enough in those roles.

It's like the old adage, you don't set fields for bad bowling. Similarly here, you build teams to win.

 

[subshakerz]

Where was that stated.

And we're taking about what's required to build a great team, not look good on paper, so that's what you look towards.

We've taken this bat deep requirement to crazy levels not represented by reality. Marshall and Warne both proved to be more than good enough in those roles.

It's like the old adage, you don't set fields for bad bowling. Similarly here, you build teams to win.

Then next time be clear on your ground rules. How good are the rest of the players?

 

[kyear2]

Then next time be clear on your ground rules. How good are the rest of the players?

It's in the OP

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Lots of valid combos in this list. I went Sobers initially then changed my mind. Settled on:

Bradman ('cause cheat code)
Marshall (contender for GOAT pacer, can hold a bat too)
Murali (for his fielding).

 

[ankitj]

Lots of valid combos in this list. I went Sobers initially then changed my mind. Settled on:

Bradman ('cause cheat code)
Marshall (contender for GOAT pacer, can hold a bat too)
Murali (for his fielding).

Really wanted a place for Murali. Can easily swap out Hadlee or Imran for him. Many valid combos as you say.

 

[subshakerz]

1. To open up I said the team was at or just above the mean for test players

I don't think it changes my selection criteria then as long as not a strong side.

2. The best two new ball bowlers as we've had in literally every poll and not close were Marshall and McGrath, yes Hadlee has been a consistent 3rd but not especially close even in the recent bowling votes. Not saying he isn't a valid option, but he wasn't the best.

I honestly don't see much difference as far as new ball quality and I can't see why you can be so definitive.

3. Imran wasn't ATG calibre over his career away from home, and we've consistently rated him the 8th best bowler so how is he the obvious 3rd option. He wasn't a great captain for a competitive side, he didn't set the fields and as I've heard from you and Smali, that it was Javed that made the strategic / field placing decisions. He was no more a great captain that Viv or Lloyd, and neither of them were they had great teams and Lloyd gets bonus points for deciding to go 4 horsemen.

If Imran wasn't ATG away then neither was Steyn but you have a million excuses for the latter. I told you I consider him the best old ball bowler.

Imran not a great captain? No, Javed wasn't doing the field like that. You honestly don't know what you are talking about here. I will defer to pretty much every peer of the era who rated him highly as captain to your uninformed speculation.

4. And re your first point, you're not competing with ATG teams if your top order consistently fails to the point you need bailing out by the tail and you're not as dominant home and away. Bumrah though is a great equalizer.

Bradman is worth two world class bats.

So if I am building my side, would I prefer two world class bats and two bowlers, or just three bats and one bowler? Obviously two pacers make sense, you aren't going to be a number 1 team on batting alone but with twin pacers you have a chance.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Went with Bradman, Hadlee, Murali in the end.

Bradman is an auto pick, went for Hadlee and Murali over the other great pacers/spinners because if I don't know the actual quality of the other bowlers, I think it makes a lot of sense to pick two guys that performed at a very high level while carrying their attacks virtually single handedly. They have the highest chance of success and also give you crazy high output with a lot of longevity and allows you to bowl a very high proportion of top quality overs. Hadlee's batting is only a small plus, his ability to shoulder a very large workload a bigger factor here.

 

[Socerer 01]

Went with Bradman, Hadlee, Murali in the end.

Bradman is an auto pick, went for Hadlee and Murali over the other great pacers/spinners because if I don't know the actual quality of the other bowlers, I think it makes a lot of sense to pick two guys that performed at a very high level while carrying their attacks virtually single handedly. They have the highest chance of success and also give you crazy high output with a lot of longevity and allows you to bowl a very high proportion of top quality overs. Hadlee's batting is only a small plus, his ability to shoulder a very large workload a bigger factor here.

**** me this encapsulates my idea behind my picks perfectly

 

[kyear2]

Went with Bradman, Hadlee, Murali in the end.

Bradman is an auto pick, went for Hadlee and Murali over the other great pacers/spinners because if I don't know the actual quality of the other bowlers, I think it makes a lot of sense to pick two guys that performed at a very high level while carrying their attacks virtually single handedly. They have the highest chance of success and also give you crazy high output with a lot of longevity and allows you to bowl a very high proportion of top quality overs. Hadlee's batting is only a small plus, his ability to shoulder a very large workload a bigger factor here.

Sound logic

 

[shortpitched713]

This is where everyone would disagree with me. In a stacked ATG XI, Sobers for me has more value than Bradman.

He's arguably the 2nd best batsman who could bat anywhere from 3 - 6 and could hunker down or counter attack as well as anyone, allows selection flexibility with the bowlers (can be your 2nd spinner in a turner, 4th quick on a seaming track), and your elite 2nd slip vs the seams and 1st slip for Warne, both critical positions.

He wasn't going to fail in all three areas and at worse he and Warne would provide invaluable rest for the quicks in tough conditions.

It's impossible to talk about Bradman's ( or Hobbs or Grace for that matter ) value. There is a massive gulf between taking the stats at face value, and taking into account the quality of opposition they face.

In Bradman's case this ends up manifesting as the possibility that the god emperor of mankind came down from the planet Xenu for the sole purpose of showing up some puny mortals in a leisure passtime, or that everyone in the old days was incredibly **** and also weren't trying because Bradman had their kids hostage, and every possibility in between becomes equally likely. It's pointless to try and speculate about it.

For me my real answer (amongst 100% certified mortal men) is Imran, McGrath, and Sobers. I think it's very unlikely that you have glaring weaknesses in either bowling lineup or batting lineup, when you end up selecting these 3, or something thereabouts.

Some people might want to go for the 3 best possible specialist bowlers, but I do think some consideration needs to be made to propping up the total, the rest of your team can muster.