Debate thread for 2024 ranking of bowlers poll

[Socerer 01]

Bro this is absolutely absurd. I'm not just "making statements" out of nowhere this is a widely accepted factor of modern cricket. No one is going to find clips or some impossible evidence to prove it to you because why would they?

Anyway just be honest about why you're taking this stance. You want to rate a modern bowler higher and the idea that modern Test bats might be "worse" is being used against your argument, right? I know you're not just taking this stance out of nowhere

tbf i dont see how this is an impossible or herculean task, you have a giant piece on Wisden about how wobble seam has made a big difference in making pacers more potent in recent years written a year ago. you have Sangakkara showing why Bairstow’s keeping technique is **** all the way back 5-6 years ago on Sky Sports. you could easily find a large amount of videos on football meta evolving and why it has done so

where’s the equivalent for the claim that t20s have ruined test batting? and it still doesnt explain how test specialists are also not having a great time batting

 

[TheJediBrah]

On the decline of Test Batting being driven by T20

This is a pretty basic three-card-trick, in which I’ll make the case that T20 batting has harmed Test averages. In summary, batting techniques began to adapt earlier this decade so a T20 stri…

redballdata.blog

The Impact of T20 Cricket on the Traditional Cricket Format

The advent of Twenty20 (T20) cricket has revolutionized the game, captivating fans with its fast-paced, high-scoring nature. Since its…

medium.com

The indirect impact of T20s on Test cricket

Ever since the introduction of T20 matches in cricket, scoring rates in all formats of cricket have increased and coincidentally, risk-taking by batsmen has also gone up.

www.thehindu.com

Here's the first 3 articles I found in 30 seconds of googling

Ftr, I don't consider any of this as "evidence". They're essentially qualititative analyses with some accompnaying data that shows a correlation rather than a causation (which would be impossible, as far as I'm concerned. There's just no way to do that, I can think of at least)

 

[TheJediBrah]

where’s the equivalent for the claim that t20s have ruined test batting?

First of all this is a sensationalisation of the matter. Nothing has been "ruined", it's a slight but noticeable and significant change.

Secondly it's completely different to the other examples you mentioned. How would you prove this with videos? There are still plenty of modern batsmen with techniques better than plenty of older batsmen. You wouldn't prove anything. It would be easy to find videos form 1985 of bad techniques and find a bunch from 2024 of good techniques and then claim that techniques are actually better now. You could find this kind of "evidence" to support any claim regardless of veracity.

You could find data supporting the idea that batsmen bat less time on average or whatever but that doesn't really prove anything either because it could just as easily be other factors affecting it like spicier pitches. If you've got better ideas, go for it, but "find a bunch of clips" is dumb and if "find some articles" is enough then see my previous post and there were dozens more available with a simple google search

 

[Socerer 01]

First of all this is a sensationalisation of the matter. Nothing has been "ruined", it's a slight but noticeable and significant change.

Secondly it's completely different to the other examples you mentioned. How would you prove this with videos? There are still plenty of modern batsmen with techniques better than plenty of older batsmen. You wouldn't prove anything. It would be easy to find videos form 1985 of bad techniques and find a bunch from 2024 of good techniques and then claim that techniques are actually better now. You could find this kind of "evidence" to support any claim regardless of veracity.

You could find data supporting the idea that batsmen bat less time on average or whatever but that doesn't really prove anything either because it could just as easily be other factors affecting it like spicier pitches.

you’re speaking my language yet you’re arriving at a slightly sensationalist conclusion, the only real proof of modern test batting being worse off that you’re saying is “its obvious to anyone watching cricket now” which is agreed only by people on this forum who spend their time engaging in constant atg wars and people who think their favourite eras of watching cricket were the best because of the nostalgia bias

if its that obvious to the naked eye, you would have more evidence, more concrete articles and videos dissecting it rather than an AI written article thats complete nonsense and another article that says batsmen overnight forgot to bat in test cricket because odis and t20 batting became easier like flicking a switch on

 

[Socerer 01]

and frankly im not taking a side here, you’re equally likely to have many who grew up watching the current era argue just like the nostalgia merchants here and they’re equally bad and nauseating online. all im asking for is good proof of this blindingly obvious thing

 

[TheJediBrah]

you’re speaking my language yet you’re arriving at a slightly sensationalist conclusion, the only real proof of modern test batting being worse off that you’re saying is “its obvious to anyone watching cricket now” which is agreed only by people on this forum who spend their time engaging in constant atg wars and people who think their favourite eras of watching cricket were the best because of the nostalgia bias

If anything it's the opposite IMO. Commentators, former players, cricket writers and semi-casual fans bring it up far more than I've seen anyone on this forum. The nostalgia bias is definitely a reasonable hypothesis for some of it, especially former players, but it's far from enough to explain it. For me I grew up watching Test cricket and general batsmanship is clearly different. It's not all "bad", strokeplay is 100x more expansive and varied these days and that's a good thing. But it's not all positive, I see techniques regularly from modern Test cricketers that would have been torn apart back when I first started following cricket.

if its that obvious to the naked eye, you would have more evidence, more concrete articles and videos dissecting it rather than an AI written article thats complete nonsense and another article that says batsmen overnight forgot to bat in test cricket because odis and t20 batting became easier like flicking a switch on

Again, what sort of evidence? There have been hundreds of players from all eras who have played varied shots with all sorts of techniques how would you even start? This isn't like showing a video of Bairstow's **** keeping technique which should be obvious to anyone with a casual glance anyway

You'd have to compile videos of every shot played by every batsmen in Test cricket for a period from both eras (or enough to be a representative sample) and you would definitely need some kind of AI to sort through it all.

 

[Sunil1z]

I am on the side of “ Batsmen are more likely to counter attack now as the play lots of limited over matches as they prioritise scoring runs over consuming balls “

Now this can be attributed to 2 factors
1. Change in mindset due to playing too much T20

2. Batsmen don’t have the technique to grind down bowlers

You can pick your favourite option.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I am on the side of “ Batamen are more likely to counter attack now as the play lots of limited over matches as they prioritise scoring runs over consuming balls “

Now this can be attributed to 2 factors
1. Change is mindset due to playing too much T20

2. Batsmen don’t have the technique to grind down bowlers

You can pick your favourite option.

In all honesty, I think it's both. The magnitudes can be varying though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I am on the side of “ Batamen are more likely to counter attack now as the play lots of limited over matches as they prioritise scoring runs over consuming balls “

Now this can be attributed to 2 factors
1. Change is mindset due to playing too much T20

2. Batsmen don’t have the technique to grind down bowlers

You can pick your favourite option.

As I said earlier, it's pretty obviously both IMO

 

[CricAddict]

I am on the side of “ Batamen are more likely to counter attack now as the play lots of limited over matches as they prioritise scoring runs over consuming balls “

Now this can be attributed to 2 factors
1. Change is mindset due to playing too much T20

2. Batsmen don’t have the technique to grind down bowlers

You can pick your favourite option.

One more factor too. Temperament. We don't see as many big hundreds now as before while we see multiple small hundreds or fifties being scored now to rack up big scores.

 

[Xix2565]

Bro this is absolutely absurd. I'm not just "making statements" out of nowhere this is a widely accepted factor of modern cricket. No one is going to find clips or some impossible evidence to prove it to you because why would they?

Anyway just be honest about why you're taking this stance. You want to rate a modern bowler higher and the idea that modern Test bats might be "worse" is being used against your argument, right? I know you're not just taking this stance out of nowhere

If it's impossible to find evidence to support then it's hardly a reasonable point to make right? Like if you can't show how and why T20 cricket affects Test batting then why say that it does at all?

The stance is that people should actually make sensible points and prove arguments rather than post whatever they want to.

 

[Sunil1z]

One more factor too. Temperament. We don't see as many big hundreds now as before while we see multiple small hundreds or fifties being scored now to rack up big scores.

What ?
Didn’t Jaiswal score 2 double centuries just now ? Also Ollie Pope was left stranded on 196 .

 

[Sunil1z]

If it's impossible to find evidence to support then it's hardly a reasonable point to make right? Like if you can't show how and why T20 cricket affects Test batting then why say that it does at all?

The stance is that people should actually make sensible points and prove arguments rather than post whatever they want to.

Anyone who is watching Test cricket can clearly observe T20 shots being attempted in Test . You don’t need articles for that .

You think Joe Root would have attempted reverse scoop if not for T20 games .

 

[Xix2565]

Anyone who is watching Test cricket can clearly observe T20 shots being attempted in Test . You don’t need articles for that .

You think Joe Root would have attempted reverse scoop if not for T20 games .

Sure, but is that a bad thing? Scoring shots involve taking risks for more reward, but does that mean that it's bad to play more of these types of shots in Tests? That Joe Root played more reverse scoops recently doesn't tell me he's ruining his batting, just that he's doing something that's very risky with all that entails. I don't think it's worse than being Boycott or Gavaskar.

 

[CricAddict]

Sure, but is that a bad thing? Scoring shots involve taking risks for more reward, but does that mean that it's bad to play more of these types of shots in Tests? That Joe Root played more reverse scoops recently doesn't tell me he's ruining his batting, just that he's doing something that's very risky with all that entails. I don't think it's worse than being Boycott or Gavaskar.

It tells that current batsmen prioritize quicker scoring over bigger innings, when someone as good as Root is doing that.

 

[Sunil1z]

I thought we were debating whether T20 has impacted Test batting. Are we discussing the positive or negative impact of T20 batting in Test

 

[Socerer 01]

If anything it's the opposite IMO. Commentators, former players, cricket writers and semi-casual fans bring it up far more than I've seen anyone on this forum. The nostalgia bias is definitely a reasonable hypothesis for some of it, especially former players, but it's far from enough to explain it. For me I grew up watching Test cricket and general batsmanship is clearly different. It's not all "bad", strokeplay is 100x more expansive and varied these days and that's a good thing. But it's not all positive, I see techniques regularly from modern Test cricketers that would have been torn apart back when I first started following cricket.


Again, what sort of evidence? There have been hundreds of players from all eras who have played varied shots with all sorts of techniques how would you even start? This isn't like showing a video of Bairstow's **** keeping technique which should be obvious to anyone with a casual glance anyway

You'd have to compile videos of every shot played by every batsmen in Test cricket for a period from both eras (or enough to be a representative sample) and you would definitely need some kind of AI to sort through it all.

most of the group you say repeat the same cliche and lazy narrative of “back in my day” tbh because its convenient and lazy for them, still dont see it as often with them compared to here

you dont need a video library of every test shot in existence to show why test batting isnt as good now compared to the past. the fundamentals of ball striking are still the same, you can easily have multitudes of videos showing how specific teams and players are faring worse off in their footwork, their shot selection or in how balanced their head is when they’re about to hit the ball. there was a great video on how Rahul went from solid test batsman to completely **** in a year due to how his head positioning was out of whack, Kimber wrote an article on how Kohli’s innings at Adelaide or Chennai a few years ago was one of the best innings he’s played despite no 100 because of how controlled the entire innings was in difficult conditions. you dont even need complete video evidence for all of this though it would help, a purely statistical exercise that includes context would also be helpful. someone still involved in coaching talking about the changes would be helpful compared to the ex players talking ****, there’s not much of any of this

 

[Socerer 01]

I am on the side of “ Batsmen are more likely to counter attack now as the play lots of limited over matches as they prioritise scoring runs over consuming balls “

Now this can be attributed to 2 factors
1. Change in mindset due to playing too much T20

2. Batsmen don’t have the technique to grind down bowlers

You can pick your favourite option.

1 and 2 can easily be put down to everyone realising that batting is harder now due to pitches and wobble seam making it easier for bowlers to bowl unplayable balls and countering that with more strokes in general to maximise runs before they’re dismissed inevitably

2 is also because its impossible to grind down bowlers these days unless its a long series with poor workload management. you have bowlers capable of bowling well over 135 kph these days even in 6-9 over spells and once they’re gone you have an equally skilled bowler if not just marginally worse ones pop up and continue. you would tend to hunker down if you knew conditions would improve later on and if a much weaker 3rd or 4th bowler would come on later compared to the main bowlers, thats not really the case these days is it?

 

[CricAddict]

What ?
Didn’t Jaiswal score 2 double centuries just now ? Also Ollie Pope was left stranded on 196 .

Have believed it from the time of his debut and stated at few places too. Jaiswal is a once in a life time jewel that we have got and 100% sure that he is going to end an ATG. Exceptions are not examples etc. Just check the frequency of the 150+ scores ratio since T20 started to the 150+ scores ratio over the history.

 

[Xix2565]

I thought we were debating whether T20 has impacted Test batting. Are we discussing the positive or negative impact of T20 batting in Test

It's all connected tbh. My point is that people attribute what they see as poor performance largely to the presence of T20s, which is bizarre to me. There's more factors involved that influences a player's batting results that isn't mentioned, like bowler talent/skill and conditions which never seem to be brought up as reasonable points, instead it's basically jumping to the idea that people suck nowadays as if cricket is the one sport where players don't get better over generations.