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Ashwin v Laker v Verity v Grimmett

Who is the best bowler amongst them in tests?

  • Total voters
    32
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Line and Length said:
I don't have fantasies - anti-Ashwin or otherwise. I was simply commenting on voting patterns.
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Oops..... Sorry. I thought it was posted by Subs. On any topic related to Ashwin, he really gets on the nerves of most Indian posters who don't completely ignore him. I would not had said it like that had I seen it was you. I am truly sorry for wording it like that.
 
Line and Length

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
Nintendo said:
Can someone give me a quick rundown on how verity is better than ashwin? He played less than half the games, against a fraction of the opposition and in a fraction of the countries ashwin has played in, In an era where 2 or 3 of the 4 teams he played against where minnow tier (not sure where SA where exactly in this time period).
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I can't give a definitive answer on "how Verity is better than Ashwin", I can only offer my reasoning in ranking them as I have.

I find it difficult comparing current players vs players with complete careers so I can only look at facts.
While Ashwin's bowling average is marginally better than Verity's, he (Ashwin) has played about 70% of his games at home in India. Away from home he has failed to impress other than against a minnow-like West Indies.
By comparison, Verity played only 55% of his games at home with 50% of his away games being against Australian teams that included Bradman. In those games he dismissed Bradman more than any other bowler.
Other statistics reveal Ashwin has a superior strike rate but Verity has a much better economy rate. This can be explained by him (Verity) being used in a containing role while Jardine rested his quicks in the bodyline series.
Finally peer assessment played a big part with none other than Bradman rating him highly. No doubt Ashwin will be rated highly by his peers but his incomplete record and away from home performances count against him when I'm comparing him to earlier spin bowlers.
I hope this explains why I rank them as I do. It's not a case of believing Verity is better than Ashwin. It's a case of looking at Verity's complete career and comparing it with Ashwin's incomplete career. Ashwin has every chance of improving his away from home performances in the future but one can only guess what that improvement (or otherwise) might be.
 
Nintendo

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Line and Length said:
I can't give a definitive answer on "how Verity is better than Ashwin", I can only offer my reasoning in ranking them as I have.

I find it difficult comparing current players vs players with complete careers so I can only look at facts.
While Ashwin's bowling average is marginally better than Verity's, he (Ashwin) has played about 70% of his games at home in India. Away from home he has failed to impress other than against a minnow-like West Indies.
By comparison, Verity played only 55% of his games at home with 50% of his away games being against Australian teams that included Bradman. In those games he dismissed Bradman more than any other bowler.
Other statistics reveal Ashwin has a superior strike rate but Verity has a much better economy rate. This can be explained by him (Verity) being used in a containing role while Jardine rested his quicks in the bodyline series.
Finally peer assessment played a big part with none other than Bradman rating him highly. No doubt Ashwin will be rated highly by his peers but his incomplete record and away from home performances count against him when I'm comparing him to earlier spin bowlers.
I hope this explains why I rank them as I do. It's not a case of believing Verity is better than Ashwin. It's a case of looking at Verity's complete career and comparing it with Ashwin's incomplete career. Ashwin has every chance of improving his away from home performances in the future but one can only guess what that improvement (or otherwise) might be.
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So you rank verity higher because he dismissed bradman more than any other bowler and bradman said he was good? I think bringing up away averages for ashwin is a bit odd given that ashwin averages 30 away and verity averages 27 away. Verity's away average in AUS is 35, it's made to look better by bullying india and other minnow sides at the time away from home. Not saying ashwin is any better, but I don't think it's fair to hold ashwin's away average against him when verity's is a similiar story. On a very general, macro level, ashwin averages 3 more away while playing against better side's in a wider range of conditions away. Like you said though, comparing guys who played 90 years apart is really hard.
 
Line and Length

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
@Nintendo
If you are going to pick apart my reasoning for ranking Verity ahead of Ashwin, perhaps you could explain how you ranked Ashwin ahead of Marshall. Or if we are comparing spinners, how you ranked him ahead of Murali or Warne.
 
Nintendo

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Line and Length said:
@Nintendo
If you are going to pick apart my reasoning for ranking Verity ahead of Ashwin, perhaps you could explain how you ranked Ashwin ahead of Marshall. Or if we are comparing spinners, how you ranked him ahead of Murali or Warne.
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Simple. Ashwin has more wickets than Marshall. Ashwin has less wickets than the other two, but he has a better away average against the best team of the ERA (Australia) so he's better.
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
Nintendo said:
Another important metric is real average. Ashwin has the expectations of 1 billion Indian fans on his back every day, so if you adjust averages for pressure ashwin has an average much lower than the other guys.
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However, Ashwin has the luck not to bowl to India's 1 billion batsmen and only to the rest of the world's 20 million (furthermore excluding Pakistan, population approx. 10 million) – in effect, he is minnow-bashing but there is indeed enormous pressure on him to do so. Based on my analysis, these two factors perfectly cancel out.
 
honestbharani

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Nah, you forget the fact that he does bowl to them in domestics. So the pressure thing is greater and hence, he is the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
honestbharani said:
Nah, you forget the fact that he does bowl to them in domestics. So the pressure thing is greater and hence, he is the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
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You forget, he has a worse record in domestic cricket than international.

Can’t even average under 25 in the Ranji Trophy :laugh:
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Line and Length said:
Laker - Verity - Grimmett - Ashwin

Surely there has been enough debate about Ashwin's qualifications as an ATG. We have a small group regularly giving him 3 votes in the current poll on bowlers. This started in the first round of voting when one fan boy gave him top spot ahead of Marshall, McGrath, Murali et al. This has continued throughout the poll. What looks strange is the fact that nearly all his votes are 3 points with very few 2s and 1s. Despite this, Ashwin has, as yet, not gained a place in the rankings. An example of these obvious attempts to distort the voting came when some of this small group, when voting for Ashwin for the first time, put him ahead of players they had voted for before.
There is no doubt Ashwin is a very good bowler who just needs to improve his record away from home. He will rightfully be voted into the current poll without attempts to artificially inflate his position.
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You may be right about some of your observations here. To balance it out, there is a poster who always votes a non indian player over an indian player in a comparison. I don't want to name him but his voting pattern is obvious. So an Indian always starts with one vote disadvantage in any comparison here.

I am not talking about @subshakerz here, whom I rate as a poster.
 
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