Greg Chappell vs Ricky Ponting

[srbhkshk]

I'll go with Ponting, yes he played on flat tracks - but he was the absolute best batsman on those flat tracks for a fair period of time when at least ~10 or so ATG or close batsman were playing the game. His average is irrelevant, could have averaged ~60 for a whole career even after playing a lot more than Chappell if he really cared about that.

 

[OverratedSanity]

People overrate how good the 70s fast bowling attacks were all the time. You can't lump it in with the 80s and 90s which actually had excellent bowling depth. Imran and Hadlee were late bloomers who only really peaked once the 80s began, India were obviously shite and at this stage didnt even have Kapil. Even the Windies quicks really only got going in the late 70s. For over half of Chappell's career, fast bowling stocks across the world were nothing special.

 

[Starfighter]

People overrate how good the 70s fast bowling attacks were all the time. You can't lump it in with the 80s and 90s which actually had excellent bowling depth. Imran and Hadlee were late bloomers who only really peaked once the 80s began, India were obviously ****e and at this stage didnt even have Kapil. Even the Windies quicks really only got going in the late 70s. For over half of Chappell's career, fast bowling stocks across the world were nothing special.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=decade;orderby=start;template=results;type=bowling

Eh, there's nothing in it between decades. There was little depth in the eighties outside of WI. The improvement by Pakistan and New Zealand was offset by England getting dramatically worse.

 

[Xix2565]

Feels more like people overrate bowling depth back then really. Can't have one or two teams dominate generally and turn around to say the bowling depth was excellent.

 

[subshakerz]

People overrate how good the 70s fast bowling attacks were all the time. You can't lump it in with the 80s and 90s which actually had excellent bowling depth. Imran and Hadlee were late bloomers who only really peaked once the 80s began, India were obviously ****e and at this stage didnt even have Kapil. Even the Windies quicks really only got going in the late 70s. For over half of Chappell's career, fast bowling stocks across the world were nothing special.

If you look at the series that Chappell played, except for the early 70s WI in one series and NZ until the mid-70s, most of the attacks he played in his career were fairly good with at least one quality bowler.

And he also played around 40 percent, 36 tests, post WSC against peak Imran, Hadlee, WI quartet, Kapil and his average actually increased.

Plus the WSC success. And pitches weren't as flat and there were no minnows.

Chappell clearly stood out in his career . And to be fair to Ponting, he did too until 2006 and then he had a steady decline after that which lasted almost as long as his peak.

I can understand placing Ponting ahead of Chappell for other reasons, but let's not pretend that batting wasn't much easier in Ponting's era. Just look at how many bats averaging 40s in the nineties bumped their average up to 50 plus in the 2000s.

I myself find it hard to split between Ponting and Chappell so this is my reasoning.

 

[OverratedSanity]

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=decade;orderby=start;template=results;type=bowling

Eh, there's nothing in it between decades. There was little depth in the eighties outside of WI. The improvement by Pakistan and New Zealand was offset by England getting dramatically worse.

I'd like to see this for 1970-1976 or so which is the period I was talking about before the windies hit their stride , I'm guessing the figures would be far more like the 2000s. Especially if you remove Australia, because Lillee and Thomson were the one duo who were truly great during that time and Chappell didn't have to face them.

Edit: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

That's pretty unimpressive isn't it? It got tougher as the decade went on yes, but that's a good 7 years where statistically, the pace bowling stocks were as mediocre as the 2000s.

 

[subshakerz]

I'd like to see this for 1970-1976 or so which is the period I was talking about before the windies hit their stride , I'm guessing the figures would be far more like the 2000s. Especially if you remove Australia, because Lillee and Thomson were the one duo who were truly great during that time and Chappell didn't have to face them.

Edit: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

That's pretty unimpressive isn't it? It got tougher as the decade went on yes, but that's a good 7 years where statistically, the pace bowling stocks were as mediocre as the 2000s.

Chappell played the most against England and they had Underwood, Snow, Willis, and later peak Botham in the pre-WSC era.

 

[kyear2]

I find it near impossible to separate these two. Even with secondary skills dragged into it, it's still pretty even for me.

Any new thoughts on this one?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I find it near impossible to separate these two. Even with secondary skills dragged into it, it's still pretty even for me.

Any new thoughts on this one?

Chappell was as good against pace and much better against spin and played on much tougher pitches. The main reason for voting for Ponting would be superior longevity I think.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Chappell played the most against England and they had Underwood, Snow, Willis, and later peak Botham in the pre-WSC era.

Those are all good bowlers, but even by your own admission none are ATGs. Wouldn't that support my argument that the attacks 70s he faced in the 70s weren't as tough as people make out. He didn't even have that good of a record against Underwood/Botham/Willis in England I think.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

It’s not just about bowling attacks. The difference in pitches in Australia in their careers was massive. Home pitches get used against Smith a lot here but don’t seem to be used at all against Ponting.

 

[subshakerz]

Those are all good bowlers, but even by your own admission none are ATGs. Wouldn't that support my argument that the attacks 70s he faced in the 70s weren't as tough as people make out. He didn't even have that good of a record against Underwood/Botham/Willis in England I think.

What about WSC and then later against the WI?

 

[OverratedSanity]

What about WSC and then later against the WI?

I refuse to count WSC tbh.* Played some great knocks against the quartet for sure. Just his complete lack of any significant touring is hard to ignore. Never toured WI once their pace battery formed, never faced Imran at his peak in Pakistan, faced Hadlee (Richard, not Dayle who he plundered tons of runs against) once in NZ (and made one great ton tbf) , and his Ashes record in Eng isn't that great. Also avoided any real tests vs spin in the subcontinent.

You compare this against the trials Border had to face away from home and its night and day. Even the stuff held against Ponting (looking inept against spin in Asia and a big decline later in his career ) is something Chappell avoided because he barely toured Asia and retired much earlier than Ponting, or indeed most other ATG batsmen. Great player, but he is nowhere near as proven /tested as Ponting/Border imo.

* This whole thing may change if you, unlike me, count WSC as part of his record

 

[subshakerz]

I refuse to count WSC tbh.* Played some great knocks against the quartet for sure. Just his complete lack of any significant touring is hard to ignore. Never toured WI once their pace battery formed, never faced Imran at his peak in Pakistan, faced Hadlee (Richard, not Dayle who he plundered tons of runs against) once in NZ (and made one great ton tbf) , and his Ashes record in Eng isn't that great. Also avoided any real tests vs spin in the subcontinent.

You compare this against the trials Border had to face away from home and its night and day. Even the stuff held against Ponting (looking inept against spin in Asia and a big decline later in his career ) is something Chappell avoided because he barely toured Asia and retired much earlier than Ponting, or indeed most other ATG batsmen. Great player, but he is nowhere near as proven /tested as Ponting/Border imo.

* This whole thing may change if you, unlike me, count WSC as part of his record

Yeah it's close frankly. I think pitch quality also gets me to lean towards Chappell.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I refuse to count WSC tbh.* Played some great knocks against the quartet for sure. Just his complete lack of any significant touring is hard to ignore. Never toured WI once their pace battery formed, never faced Imran at his peak in Pakistan, faced Hadlee (Richard, not Dayle who he plundered tons of runs against) once in NZ (and made one great ton tbf) , and his Ashes record in Eng isn't that great. Also avoided any real tests vs spin in the subcontinent.

You compare this against the trials Border had to face away from home and its night and day. Even the stuff held against Ponting (looking inept against spin in Asia) is something Chappell didn't have to even face. Great player, but he is nowhere near as proven /tested as Ponting/Border imo.

* This whole thing may change if you, unlike me, count WSC as part of his record

Do you rate Walsh higher than Lillee? Walsh was much more tested/proven and much better longevity like Border

 

[Aidan11]

Close but I feel Ponting is better.

 

[kyear2]

What about WSC and then later against the WI?

Didn't he retire rather than face Marshall and co in '84?

 

[kyear2]

WSC is where I get conflicted tbh. Dude was the equal of the Richards' there and when you include that I think he even surpasses Sunny from the era and slots in behind just Viv.

 

[Coronis]

Didn't he retire rather than face Marshall and co in '84?

Yep totally. Thats why Lillee retired too he was afraid to go and face the batting. And Marsh was afraid to go and face keeping on those pitches.


All 3 absolute tossers. Retired at 36 35 and 34. Awful all round.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I find it near impossible to separate these two. Even with secondary skills dragged into it, it's still pretty even for me.

Any new thoughts on this one?

It's Chappell and not particularly close for me.

WSC is where I get conflicted tbh. Dude was the equal of the Richards' there and when you include that I think he even surpasses Sunny from the era and slots in behind just Viv.

I think it's stretching a bit. His WSC record is prime stuff, but they were still played in his home conditions.