Steve Waugh vs Ricky Ponting in Tests?

[kyear2]

You need to explain this to Malcolm Marshall stans who downright eulogize his "under 25 average against all countries" stat, as if that alone puts him over other top 5 seamers, who all had excellent away records barring maybe 1 or 2 countries.

1. Heaven forbid we reward consistency.

2. That's one of the reasons why people put him ahead

3. If someone only played in 10 tests or higher in 3 countries (away from home) and perform below par in two of them, shouldn't that factor into the perception of their overall away performances?

Just wondering what else should be be looking at besides skill set, and home and away records.

But then again, if memory serves me correctly, you believe that Pollock is a top 3 player of all time.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ponting vs Waugh is in that strange place for me, where I think it's somewhat close; but not really.

 

[kyear2]

Waugh was a great batsman, he was tough as nails and almost like a second coming of AB. But he also chose to or had to remove strokes from his repertoire to succeed and moved himself down the order.

Ponting did neither while batting at 3 as the batting backbone of the greatest team ever.

Close enough, but definitively for Ponting.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Waugh was a great batsman, he was tough as nails and almost like a second coming of AB. But he also chose to or had to remove stokes from his repertoire to succeed and moved himself down the order.

Ponting did neither while batting at 3 as the batting backbone of the greatest team ever.

Close enough, but definitively for Ponting.

Ponting also played in an easier era, in a mean stronger batting team and Waugh did levels better away against the 4 best teams of his time; West Indies, South Africa, India and England. I just have a feeling in this discussion that I am missing something in favour of Ponting except aggression, that's the reason I keep on replying.....

 

[kyear2]

No one considers Gilly ATG except you .
Maybe you should stop treating him as an ATG batsman

Where in that sentence did I call him an ATG batsman, I've long conceded that he's not.

But he is chosen almost unanimously to the ATG team because of said batting. If his batting wasn't perceived to be head and shoulders above everyone else, Knott would definely be there.

So again, the question stands.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Where in that sentence did I call him an ATG batsman, I've long conceded that he's not.

But he is chosen almost unanimously to the ATG team because of said batting. If his batting wasn't perceived to be head and shoulders above everyone else, Knott would definely be there.

So again, the question stands.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Sunil1z]

Where in that sentence did I call him an ATG batsman, I've long conceded that he's not.

But he is chosen almost unanimously to the ATG team because of said batting. If his batting wasn't perceived to be head and shoulders above everyone else, Knott would definely be there.

So again, the question stands.

No the question doesn’t stand .
Gilly is definitely better than Knott even after era/pitch adjustments. Ponting isn’t better.

 

[kyear2]

Ponting also played in an easier era, in a mean stronger batting team and Waugh did levels better away against the 4 best teams of his time; West Indies, South Africa, India and England. I just have a feeling in this discussion that I am missing something in favour of Ponting except aggression, that's the reason I keep on replying.....

He's the one that made it that strong of a batting team.

And Waugh didn't perform at levels better

 

[capt_Luffy]

He's the one that made it that strong of a batting team.

And Waugh didn't perform at levels better

In West Indies, South Africa, India and England; he in fact did. And as a whole, Ponting did played in a stronger batting unit than Waugh; surrounded with Hayden, Langer, Waugh bros, Clarke, Martyn, Lehman, Slater, Hussey, Gilly, etc.

 

[kyear2]

No the question doesn’t stand .
Gilly is definitely better than Knott even after era/pitch adjustments. Ponting isn’t better.

As having watched so much of both of Waugh's and Ponting's careers, of course Ponting was better.

And I'm not even arguing of the value of Knott' s keeping would boost him over Gilly of not, I'm simply making the point that no one questions Gilly's impact with the bat they do Ponting's. That's it.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Waugh was definitely better away from home

but I’m starting to think home and away should be weighed equally anyways

 

[capt_Luffy]

As having watched so much of both of Waugh's and Ponting's careers, of course Ponting was better.

And I'm not even arguing of the value of Knott' s keeping would boost him over Gilly of not, I'm simply making the point that no one questions Gilly's impact with the bat they do Ponting's. That's it.

Because the whole point of Gilly's bat was pure impact; not so much so as building an innings. In an ATG team, getting a quick 30 runs from him is enough; doesn't works like that for Ponting.

As for your first eye test point; I don't really feel much strongly about that. Glenn McGrath is rated lower than Akram by many peers and experts due to this very reason.

 

[Sunil1z]

As having watched so much of both of Waugh's and Ponting's careers, of course Ponting was better.

And I'm not even arguing of the value of Knott' s keeping would boost him over Gilly of not, I'm simply making the point that no one questions Gilly's impact with the bat they do Ponting's. That's it.

People don’t question his impact because he is competing with even worse Wkt keeper bat .Whereas Ponting is competing with very good batsmen. It’s all about competition.

 

[kyear2]

Because the whole point of Gilly's bat was pure impact; not so much so as building an innings. In an ATG team, getting a quick 30 runs from him is enough; doesn't works like that for Ponting.

As for your first eye test point; I don't really feel much strongly about that. Glenn McGrath is rated lower than Akram by many peers and experts due to this very reason.

You're missing my point about Gilchrist. I'm not arguing his role or potential impact compared to Ponting, I'm simply saying for someone who makes the ATG test XI at a rate comparable to Bradman, Sobers, Hobbs, Marshall and Tendulkar, and makes said XI based predominantly on his batting exploits, said exploits aren't questioned the way Ponting's are.

And re eye test, McGrath is without doubt the 2nd best bowler I've ever seen, there's little completion there.

 

[Sunil1z]

McGrath has little competition but Gilchrist has competition

 

[capt_Luffy]

You're missing my point about Gilchrist. I'm not arguing his role or potential impact compared to Ponting, I'm simply saying for someone who makes the ATG test XI at a rate comparable to Bradman, Sobers, Hobbs, Marshall and Tendulkar, and makes said XI based predominantly on his batting exploits, said exploits aren't questioned the way Ponting's are.

And re eye test, McGrath is without doubt the 2nd best bowler I've ever seen, there's little completion there.

Most don't so. Close to universally most people rate Lillee over McGrath based on that eye test. Based on eye test, Virat looks better than Smith. Eye test isn't the way to go imo.

Had Gilly's batting exploits weren't questioned, he would had been in the class of Peter May and Clive Lloyd. He isn't there. He makes those team because other keeper bats just doesn't have comparable batting. His batting exploits are great relative to other keepers.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Waugh was definitely better away from home

but I’m starting to think home and away should be weighed equally anyways

You may came out of it with something like Sehwag>Ponting.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

You may came out of it with something like Sehwag>Ponting.

No if you rate home and away performances equally Ponting still comes out a tier above sehwag lol.

Having a really well rounded away record looks great on statsguru but I’m not sure away is actually more important than home in real life.

 

[Sunil1z]

You may came out of it with something like Sehwag>Ponting.

Sehwag’s liability in 3 country is too much to overcome.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No if you rate home and away performances equally Ponting still comes out a tier above sehwag lol.

Having a really well rounded away record looks great on statsguru but I’m not sure away is actually more important than home in real life.

Does he?? He surely doesn't for Virat.