Socerer 01
International Captain
the strawmanning has spread from the Ashwin threads oh no
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Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
Coronis
International Coach
I never said that lol. Just that if we want to assume Kapil’s poor English record would improve we should also assume Botham’s already good Indian record would also improve. And then of course he would get even more bonus points for having an ATG record as an Indian pacer in India, thus proving once and for all he is indeed the better bowler.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Man, that's such a stupid argument..... I said Kapil's English record improve, as would say anyone with a bit of critical thinking. Do you think had Botham been Caribbean, his record won't improve? Or that Kapil's already great record would had improved significantly; clearing ones and for all who is the better bowler?
Coronis
International Coach
No, I just think the whole argument is stupid.
Slifer
International Captain
If they faced the same level of bowling in South Africa and Australia then yeah. But they didn't. If either had absurd series vs challenging attacks like Lara did in '99 vs Australia or 2001 in SL then yes. I rate Lara below Sachin precisely for their away record and below a few others for the same reason. If you feel he's outside the top 15, I'm not going losing any sleep over that. I know you didn't say that and I get your point....
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
That SC pacers should receive more flak for home performances?? Then you should do the same with spinners too.
Slifer
International Captain
Umm I already acknowledged that you were trolling or did you miss that as well....
Sunil1z
International Regular
No , it isn’t. Anderson was once averaging 35. But after consistent hardwork he has brought his bowling average down to 26 . Similarly had Kapil played in England has home venue , he definitely would have brought his average down to 30 .
Collectively, as well as in terms of their home bowling being 'tougher conditions than away', which would make their home records better in relation. None of the other ATGs are Asian (until Bumrah has been playing a bit longer at least).
I'm talking about Pak bowlers specifically on this. The pitch disadvantage other Asian quicks were at is too clear to bother discuss much.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Their bias is only getting clearer now. You just need to scratch the surface. SC pacers have to jump through every conceivable hoop to reach parity for them and they won't to entertain anything outside of their fixed notion of these bowlers.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Your hidden assumption is that 'SC bowlers need to be below worldclass level for us to consider pitch conditions difficult'.
Slifer
International Captain
But then how would he do in India (of his time) vs a batting lineup better than England's?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
We already know, he averages 26 there.
PlayerComparisons
International Vice-Captain
Predicting what a players home record would be in a country based on how they did there away from home is very dumb.
You need a sample size of like at least 50 to do that.
You need a sample size of like at least 50 to do that.
Sunil1z
International Regular
But why are we fixing the debate only to 2 countries to determine who is superior?
Does anyone consider Kumble superior to Warne because he outperformed Warne in both IND and AUS .
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Vaas averages 26 at home, Srinath averages 26 at home, Kapil averages 26 at home.
Lets be frank, are any of these bowlers treated as if facing a better-than-decent threat in these conditions? We would rate Flintoff in England better based on his mini peak despite him average 10 points higher with the ball at home.
Lets be frank, are any of these bowlers treated as if facing a better-than-decent threat in these conditions? We would rate Flintoff in England better based on his mini peak despite him average 10 points higher with the ball at home.
Slifer
International Captain
We actually don't because he wouldn't have faced the Indian batting there and he's English now which means India is totally foreign to him. He'd be bowling in conditions he's not used to being that he's English now. Do i think Devs average may go down in England had he been English? Very likely but conversely his average in India would likely go up.
Slifer
International Captain
Here's a logical question given the following pool of bowlers and considering only bowling who would be your 3 picks for an atg xi assuming that team would be playing worldwide:
Ambrose, Imran, Wasim, Hadlee, McGrath, Steyn, Lillee, Donald, Trueman, Marshall. I'm picking Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee. Who are you picking Subz?