Jack Hobbs vs Gary Sobers

[Slifer]

O’Reilly played in 30s. He ain’t getting murdered by nobody. Even Bradman couldn’t do it neither could any other ATG, so how on earth is he no factor against Sobers, Lara, Viv etc? Viv had huge troubles against Chandra, he would be going through hell against O’Reilly.

O'Reilly would in fact get murdered in the Caribbean no questions asked. I won't get into the rest of the debate quite yet....

 

[kyear2]

I mean - you still would feasibly have an ATG XI of:

Simpson
Morris
Bradman
Chappell
Harvey
Border
Marsh+ (presumably)
Lindwall
Davidson
Lillee
O’Reilly

Still beats all the current ATG XIs imo, closer with the Windies than now but Bradman and O’Reilly give them a big edge.

WI and SA are both at worse equals to this squad or a full one. All these guys are at their peak and our guys and SA trounces this bowling attack, McGrath at a min is required.
Richards, Lara, Sobers in their prime tops all but Bradman. Headley on par with any of them, and I'm including Smith.

 

[Srinivas Vangala]

Australian Bowling Attack : 1) Dennis Lillee 2) Glenn McGrath 3) Ray Lindwall 4) Shane Warne 5) Keith Miller. West Indies Bowling Attack : 1) Malcolm Marshall 2) Michael Holding 3) Curtly Ambrose 4) Lance Gibbs 5) Gary Sobers

 

[Coronis]

Again, the first link. It's ok, dude. You posted something without any idea of what it was. Move on.

If that makes you feel bettee, sure

 

[Coronis]

WI attack is the most lethal attack of all time.
They bowl not only to take wickets cheaply but to cause terror, pain and injury. Bradman would have to do well to average even 40 against them, given how he had a hard time against significantly inferior bodyline. So there's no Bradman advantage against this lot. IMO Chappell might fare better than your no.3.

And let's not talk about 20s O'Reilly as he will get obliterated by Sobers, Lara and Viv.

So I agree with others that Mcgrath + Gilly are key to 'balancing' the odds for Aus against WI ATXI.

lol yeah ok right. Bradman just doesn’t matter in this context. Makes sense.

WI and SA are both at worse equals to this squad or a full one. All these guys are at their peak and our guys and SA trounces this bowling attack, McGrath at a min is required.
Richards, Lara, Sobers in their prime tops all but Bradman. Headley on par with any of them, and I'm including Smith.

As I said I agree outside of that that Windies has a superior middle order - but you guys are really underestimating the impact of an actual spinner, and an ATG at that.

 

[honestbharani]

If that makes you feel bettee, sure

The facts do, yes.

 

[kyear2]

lol yeah ok right. Bradman just doesn’t matter in this context. Makes sense.



As I said I agree outside of that that Windies has a superior middle order - but you guys are really underestimating the impact of an actual spinner, and an ATG at that.

Possibly. As you know I believe Warne was in rarefied air with only Murali, but kinda feel he was the reverse McGrath. Think he kinda shrinked when faces by the biggest opponents. I could be wrong, but yes spin does play a part. Garner kind of played that role for us, and no one was as dangerous as Curtly on a last day pitch.

And to clarify, not saying I believe the WI is out right better, real close between the top 3 or so.

 

[Coronis]

Possibly. As you know I believe Warne was in rarefied air with only Murali, but kinda feel he was the reverse McGrath. Think he kinda shrinked when faces by the biggest opponents. I could be wrong, but yes spin does play a part. Garner kind of played that role for us, and no one was as dangerous as Curtly on a last day pitch.

And to clarify, not saying I believe the WI is out right better, real close between the top 3 or so.

I find it funny though, I said that that version of Australia would probably be able to beat the other ATG teams and people are losing it like I said that they still have a huge edge (they don’t), its quite close between them and the Windies as I’ve tried to explain.

 

[kyear2]

I find it funny though, I said that that version of Australia would probably be able to beat the other ATG teams and people are losing it like I said that they still have a huge edge (they don’t), its quite close between them and the Windies as I’ve tried to explain.

Understood.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

False. Viv had this problem in his debut series. Smashed the quartet in WI, on spin friendly pitches, where Bedi and Chandra took as many wickets each as Holding

None of Sobers or Viv or anyone other than Lara faced a spinner anything close to O’Reilly’s class. Tiger is nowhere even close to being a cake walk. Bradman, Hammond, Hutton and literally every guy that went up against O’Reilly found it like hell, so would Indies line up imho. Would be quite a contest.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

None of Sobers or Viv or anyone other than Lara faced a spinner anything close to O’Reilly’s class. Tiger is nowhere even close to being a cake walk. Bradman, Hammond, Hutton and literally every guy that went up against O’Reilly found it like hell, so would Indies line up imho. Would be quite a contest.

I never said he’s going to be a cake walk. And Lara faced and dominated Warne, and Murali, two of the greatest spinners.

 

[Coronis]

I never said he’s going to be a cake walk. And Lara faced and dominated Warne, and Murali, two of the greatest spinners.

Got dominated by Heath Streak though.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Got dominated by Heath Streak though.

I mean Lara‘s known to be one of the all time great players of spin

 

[kyear2]

None of Sobers or Viv or anyone other than Lara faced a spinner anything close to O’Reilly’s class. Tiger is nowhere even close to being a cake walk. Bradman, Hammond, Hutton and literally every guy that went up against O’Reilly found it like hell, so would Indies line up imho. Would be quite a contest.

To be fair, Hutton did score a world record against him.

But agree

 

[capt_Luffy]

Agreed 100%.

In football AT XI discussions, no one gets picked from a time before Pele.

Cricket should do the same, and should not really consider for serious quality anyone from a time before Bradman, but we fall foul of this constantly.

WG Grace, Barnes, Hobbs as historical signposts are immense. As meaningfully comparable all time quality cricketers they are nothing more than a gigantic question mark.

José Leandro Andrade in mine.

 

[sayon basak]

José Leandro Andrade in mine.

Isn't De Stefano the greatest player before Pele?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Isn't De Stefano the greatest player before Pele?

He is, but Di Stefano isn't much older than Pelé. Andrade played in the 1920s and early 30s.

 

[sayon basak]

He is, but Di Stefano isn't much older than Pelé. Andrade played in the 1920s and early 30s.

What about Stanley Matthews and Jose Manuel Moreno? Are any of them in your AT XI?

 

[capt_Luffy]

What about Stanley Matthews and Jose Manuel Moreno? Are any of them in your AT XI?

In respective English (automatic choice) and Argentinian XIs (close call, too many great attacking players, including 3 of the 4 best ever); but not in the World XI.

The World XI:

Yashin
Maldini
Beckenbauer
Baresi
Carlos Alberto
Andrade
Di Stefano
Maradona
Messi
C Ronaldo
Pele

 

[shortpitched713]

How much pre Pele football have you all watched?

I've watched some games, and the standard tends to be honestly quite poor. If a forward can dribble past even one guy in order to get a shot on goal, that's considered quite good, and is pretty rare.

The concept of a balanced formation, WM, and then 4-2-4 really started around the time of Pele, because players like him and Garrincha (probably Matthews before them), could consistently jink past defenders in a way that was never required to defend against before.

Andrade certainly was important in big wins for Uruguay, but what does the mean when creating an all-time team, once again, when the skill level simply wasn't there at that time?