Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[CricAddict]

That attack is likely not far off the money with maybe an extra seamer in for one of the spinners (Shami maybe) depending on conditions, but if they're running into other ATG sides with that bowling line up they're going to struggle to beat time with a stick.

There are 3 pacers in that line-up anyway in Dev, Bumrah and Kumble.

 

[subshakerz]

It does. But I think it would be a major disservice to Indian spinners given their importance and history to take a 3rd pacer over them, imo. In away tours I am not really expecting to bat Australia, SA, WI and England; but atleast they could hold the fort pretty well at home.

This seems like an emotional reason. I consider Jadeja droppable in the big scheme of things since I firmly believe in putting your five best bowlers, 3 pacers and 2 spinners.

 

[capt_Luffy]

This seems like an emotional reason. I consider Jadeja droppable in the big scheme of things since I firmly believe in putting your five best bowlers, 3 pacers and 2 spinners.

It's to an extent is; and to an extent I just believe Shami would be a level below the quality I need. Jadeja is their not purely for his bowling; I would have all of Chandrashekhar, Bedi and Subhash Gupte ahead of him as pure bowlers; but imo the team really needs those extra runs.

 

[centurymaker]

Sehwag
Gavaskar
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Pant
K Dev
Ashwin
Kumble/Chandra/Bedi
Bumrah
Zaheer/Shami

 

[subshakerz]

It's to an extent is; and to an extent I just believe Shami would be a level below the quality I need. Jadeja is their not purely for his bowling; I would have all of Chandrashekhar, Bedi and Subhash Gupte ahead of him as pure bowlers; but imo the team really needs those extra runs.

To each their own. I don't see the point of having batting until no.9 if your bowlers struggle to bowl out sides outside SC.

 

[Socerer 01]

This seems like an emotional reason. I consider Jadeja droppable in the big scheme of things since I firmly believe in putting your five best bowlers, 3 pacers and 2 spinners.

Jadeja > Ashwin for an atg Indian xi

 

[centurymaker]

Ashwin > Jadeja, when you already have Kapil Dev batting at 7.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja > Ashwin for an atg Indian xi

Interesting. How much superior would you put Ashwin over Jadeja on SC wickets?

 

[Victor Ian]

I disagree with Pant at 6. Only SA and Windies have the luxury of a Batting all rounder.

The two best sides ever played four bowlers. At that level, your 5th is just filling time and your main 4 can bowl long spells. The top ATG bowlers aren't fragile.

ATG 11s should be 6 phenomenal batsmen, a keeper, and 4 top bowlers who can get you past 80 overs per day. That's my take. If 1 of those 4 is a spin bowler who can keep it tight in non favourable conditions, you are set.

 

[Socerer 01]

Interesting. How much superior would you put Ashwin over Jadeja on SC wickets?

Ashwin is superior but not by as big of a margin as others may rate but thats because Jadeja is super underrated imo

 

[centurymaker]

I disagree with Pant at 6. Only SA and Windies have the luxury of a Batting all rounder.

The two best sides ever played four bowlers. At that level, your 5th is just filling time and your main 4 can bowl long spells. The top ATG bowlers aren't fragile.

ATG 11s should be 6 phenomenal batsmen, a keeper, and 4 top bowlers who can get you past 80 overs per day. That's my take. If 1 of those 4 is a spin bowler who can keep it tight in non favourable conditions, you are set.

In that case, could go with-

Sehwag
Gavaskar
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Laxman
Pant
K Dev
Ashwin
Kumble
Bumrah

 

[Socerer 01]

I disagree with Pant at 6. Only SA and Windies have the luxury of a Batting all rounder.

The two best sides ever played four bowlers. At that level, your 5th is just filling time and your main 4 can bowl long spells. The top ATG bowlers aren't fragile.

ATG 11s should be 6 phenomenal batsmen, a keeper, and 4 top bowlers who can get you past 80 overs per day. That's my take. If 1 of those 4 is a spin bowler who can keep it tight in non favourable conditions, you are set.

the 2 best sides ever also had no all rounder knocking on their door for selection at their prime unless you count Gilchrist as that all rounder like some like doing, if they did then they would have picked them. proof is in Watson and Symonds getting picked for Australia when available

you can easily play Pant at 6 when you still have Jadeja and Dev to come next

 

[Coronis]

then why don’t off spinners spin the ball with their off

Well that was why I was never much good at offspin. My off is… quite a bit smaller than average.

Leg’s thick as tree trunks though. Dynamite calves are my best feature.

 

[subshakerz]

I disagree with Pant at 6. Only SA and Windies have the luxury of a Batting all rounder.

The two best sides ever played four bowlers. At that level, your 5th is just filling time and your main 4 can bowl long spells. The top ATG bowlers aren't fragile.

ATG 11s should be 6 phenomenal batsmen, a keeper, and 4 top bowlers who can get you past 80 overs per day. That's my take. If 1 of those 4 is a spin bowler who can keep it tight in non favourable conditions, you are set.

This is a fair point. I just think having a fifth bowling option is important in test cricket. But it is true, that fifth option can be a support level bowler as well. So the question is how bad is your fifth bowling option.

Actually, the more I think about how ATG contests are likely to be low scoring, the more important having that extra batting place is.

the 2 best sides ever also had no all rounder knocking on their door for selection at their prime unless you count Gilchrist as that all rounder like some like doing, if they did then they would have picked them. proof is in Watson and Symonds getting picked for Australia when available

you can easily play Pant at 6 when you still have Jadeja and Dev to come next

Yeah but imagine you are playing a bowling lineup of Marshall, Ambrose, Holding and Garner or McGrath, Lillee, Cummins and Warne. Wouldnt you rather have an extra bat at number six rather than that extra bowler?

 

[Xix2565]

The two best sides ever played four bowlers. At that level, your 5th is just filling time and your main 4 can bowl long spells. The top ATG bowlers aren't fragile.

That was because they played sides who often didn't have 3 good bowlers, let alone 4. Different case now.

 

[Victor Ian]

the 2 best sides ever also had no all rounder knocking on their door for selection at their prime unless you count Gilchrist as that all rounder like some like doing, if they did then they would have picked them. proof is in Watson and Symonds getting picked for Australia when available

you can easily play Pant at 6 when you still have Jadeja and Dev to come next

Those top 2 sides also did not have a top 6 where the all rounder had no chance of being thereabouts with the 6th best batsman.
If you are trying to pick a side that will play a series, then I can see trying to shove a 5th bowler into the side, but if you are picking for a series then you should be picking a squad. If you are picking for a single test, then 4 bowlers is enough and weakening the batting to slot in an extra bowler, so you can strengthen the batting lower down kind of seems a bit counter productive.
I'm more curious to see what others think about a 5th bowler in ATG teams and why, rather than to try and defend my own preference. I'm easy to swing - it just takes about 45 pages.

 

[Socerer 01]

This is a fair point. I just think having a fifth bowling option is important in test cricket. But it is true, that fifth option can be a support level bowler as well. So the question is how bad is your fifth bowling option.

Actually, the more I think about how ATG contests are likely to be low scoring, the more important having that extra batting place is.



Yeah but imagine you are playing a bowling lineup of Marshall, Ambrose, Holding and Garner or McGrath, Lillee, Cummins and Warne. Wouldnt you rather have an extra bat at number six rather than that extra bowler?

would rather have the extra bowling option

teams of today have access to more data and stats than ever and they still gravitate towards picking the extra bowling option if possible

 

[Victor Ian]

That was because they played sides who often didn't have 3 good bowlers, let alone 4. Different case now.

I'd suggest that you are suffering the delusion of the bowling era. Bowlers are not better now - It is not a golden age. Pitches are just helping them. Just like the 2000's weren't a golden age for batsmen. This is the context people talk about that you have to be aware of rather than just looking at stats.

 

[Socerer 01]

Those top 2 sides also did not have a top 6 where the all rounder had no chance of being thereabouts with the 6th best batsman.
If you are trying to pick a side that will play a series, then I can see trying to shove a 5th bowler into the side, but if you are picking for a series then you should be picking a squad. If you are picking for a single test, then 4 bowlers is enough and weakening the batting to slot in an extra bowler, so you can strengthen the batting lower down kind of seems a bit counter productive.
I'm more curious to see what others think about a 5th bowler in ATG teams and why, rather than to try and defend my own preference. I'm easy to swing - it just takes about 45 pages.

in the case of Jadeja since thats what brought the example up, going by raw stats you’re losing around half a wicket per match to doubling your average run output comparing him to Kumble not to mention his fielding. no side in the world is going to say no to that trade

 

[Socerer 01]

I'd suggest that you are suffering the delusion of the bowling era. Bowlers are not better now - It is not a golden age. Pitches are just helping them. Just like the 2000's weren't a golden age for batsmen. This is the context people talk about that you have to be aware of rather than just looking at stats.

surely you’re not disputing that the 3rd or 4th bowlers of today are much better than back then???? that has nothing to do with better pitches for bowling