Coronis
International Coach
WE DIDNT LOSE THE SERIES RAWR
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Ravichandran Ashwin vs Nathan Lyon
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
OverratedSanity
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Moral loss.
No, you have to say they didn't win, unlike India who always win.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Dude, I think you are confused about what I am trying to argue. I don't consider Lyon an ATG, but a regular great and judge him on those standards.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
You voted for Lyon - a guy that has dropped 2 series in a row to India at home (and also can’t beat them away), and also recently merely tied with Windies at home.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I don't accept that we should conflate team series result with player performance.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
So Lyon gets excused because Australian conditions are harsh for spinners, but then presumably he should clean up on the easy to bowl decks in India right?
And yet when they've all played together (probably the fairest measure really as they're playing on the same decks...)...
Games involving Ashwin, Jadeja and Lyon:
Ashwin: 76 wickets in 13 matches @ 23.17, SR 55.2
Jadeja: 72 wickets in 13 matches @ 18.56, SR 47.5
Lyon: 61 wickets in 13 matches @ 29.67, SR 58.0
So what gives? It's not like you can claim Lyon has poor bowling support because the Aussie pace attack is quite good, and since the Indian decks as well are just minefields where any spinner can take a 5-fer, the other Aussie spinner will also be good support anyway.
And yet when they've all played together (probably the fairest measure really as they're playing on the same decks...)...
Games involving Ashwin, Jadeja and Lyon:
Ashwin: 76 wickets in 13 matches @ 23.17, SR 55.2
Jadeja: 72 wickets in 13 matches @ 18.56, SR 47.5
Lyon: 61 wickets in 13 matches @ 29.67, SR 58.0
So what gives? It's not like you can claim Lyon has poor bowling support because the Aussie pace attack is quite good, and since the Indian decks as well are just minefields where any spinner can take a 5-fer, the other Aussie spinner will also be good support anyway.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
So what's the excuse for Lyon's relatively average record in India too? (Compared to Ashwin and Jadeja, since he's playing on the same minefields?)
Anyway since we love a little checklist by country, here's Lyon vs...
Bangladesh (14.31)
England (29.41)
India (31.56)
New Zealand (18.87) - at this point I'm sure Australia could play their Under 10s and beat New Zealand. NZ are mentally shot before they even play Australia.
Pakistan (42.12)
South Africa (39.41)
Sri Lanka (34.86)
West Indies (22.94)
Looks to be a bit of a minnow basher, really...
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah, dont care about win/loss of the team when discussing players. will talk about groups and taking Ls when talking about posters. So neutral and cricket based. 
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Because Lyons has an entire home career full of highlights and lowlights to choose from so I don't see it being defined by those two series results. Even if you want to isolate it to just vs India, he is a mixed bag based on 2014, 2018 and 2021. Do you get me?
OverratedSanity
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This is the evidence everyone ignores. India's batsmen ****ing suck vs spin too so it cant be much of a factor.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
First off, he averages 27 in India, not 31 you gave which is both home and away.
Second, I have always maintained Ashwin is a superior bowler to Lyon in SC, particularly India. However, to Lyons credit, he has improved in India in each tour he has visited, and overall his record there (56 wickets @ 27 in 11 tests) is good, not average.
Does that clarify?
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Those are his records vs those teams, not just away.
By context of Indian pitches being minefields where any bowler can take a 5-fer (as per your claim), and against a team that isn't all that batting vs spin (again, as per your claim), a 27 average is pretty poor.
Seem to be physically shot as well by the looks of things. Any good player they have seems to be injured in time for a game vs Australia.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I know but you cited a problem with him in India, which I don't agree with.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Edited my earlier post for further clarification.
Coronis
International Coach
That Bradman guy dropped 2 home series in a row to England. ****ing hack
shortpitched713
International Captain
PEWS, ataraxia, and trundler probably have some complicated formulas and filters which definitively prove in their mind Lyon > Ashwin ( not that trundler will give you much more than "player X sucks, player Y rules, obviously").
I'd be hard-pressed to imagine much of the remaining votes are anything other than homer picks from our large contingent of Australians, for whose Test side Lyon has certainly put in a manful shift, but that's an emotion pick for mine.
I'd be hard-pressed to imagine much of the remaining votes are anything other than homer picks from our large contingent of Australians, for whose Test side Lyon has certainly put in a manful shift, but that's an emotion pick for mine.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
On that note, it’s why I don’t think a “Bradman in Australia ATG teams means they’d clean up and he’s a cheat code so let’s exclude him” is the right way to go
Coronis
International Coach
I do disagree with excluding him but he is basically a cheat code.