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Ravichandran Ashwin vs Nathan Lyon

Who is the better test bowler?

  • Total voters
    33
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien said:
nah their Eng and SA records are very close(both average the same in Eng, and Ashwin has played far less and not gotten as many opportunities to take a fifer as Lyon, and in SA, they both are very bad). Ashwin’s superiority in SC over Lyon is of a higher degree
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We have different criteria by which we judge spin records. I don't do just average reading. So let disagree then.

Ashwin superiority in conditions that are meant to be spin friendly isn't a plus for me. I had the same argument for those defending Sehwag in SC to excuse him in swinging countries.

To clarify from your perspective, if Ashwin and Lyon switched home countries, Lyon would have ended up with a career average much like Ashwin's now, maybe not as good in India but much better away. While Ashwin would have had a far worse average than Lyons based on his limited skillset outside SC.
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
subshakerz said:
They generalise over the course of a career. We cant keep crying foul everyone Ashwin doesn't get a designer pitch.
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Not to that extent tbh. And on the other point, does the same not apply to other players who do very well in certain conditions, like SENA pacers and so on? They all make good use of the pitch, and some of their best records outside of home come on such conditions that suit them quite well.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Ashwin is superior to Lyon in SC by a degree much higher than Lyon’s superiority to Ashwin in SENA. Both have a very record in WI btw.
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I don't really agree because the difference in SENA means some games won vs no games won.

And Ashwin's superiority in SC only seems more valuable to you because he plays most of his career there not regarding actual all-round spin ability.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
subshakerz said:
We have different criteria by which we judge spin records. I don't do just average reading. So let disagree then.

Ashwin superiority in conditions that are meant to be spin friendly isn't a plus for me. I had the same argument for those defending Sehwag in SC to excuse him in swinging countries.

To clarify from your perspective, if Ashwin and Lyon switched home countries, Lyon would have ended up with a career average much like Ashwin's now, maybe not as good in India but much better away. While Ashwin would have had a far worse average than Lyons based on his limited skillset outside SC.
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Even if you don’t do average reading, based on your criticism of Ashwin not running through sides, Lyon has one only one fifer each in Eng and SA. And Lyon would have a vastly inferior record in Ind to Ashwin, if he was born in India.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Xix2565 said:
Not to that extent tbh. And on the other point, does the same not apply to other players who do very well in certain conditions, like SENA pacers and so on? They all make good use of the pitch, and some of their best records outside of home come on such conditions that suit them quite well.
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Sure but then we scrutinize how they do in the SC to mark out the really quality ones, like Lyon in SENA.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
We have different criteria by which we judge spin records. I don't do just average reading. So let disagree then.

Ashwin superiority in conditions that are meant to be spin friendly isn't a plus for me. I had the same argument for those defending Sehwag in SC to excuse him in swinging countries.

To clarify from your perspective, if Ashwin and Lyon switched home countries, Lyon would have ended up with a career average much like Ashwin's now, maybe not as good in India but much better away. While Ashwin would have had a far worse average than Lyons based on his limited skillset outside SC.
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That's a new one.... You're ultimately delivering on that promise!!
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
subshakerz said:
Sure but then we scrutinize how they do in the SC to mark out the really quality ones, like Lyon in SENA.
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They can make green/fast/bouncy wickets in the SC, you know. Some of the better performances have occurred in such games, but it gets washed away overall in 'Oh they overcame tough conditions' refrain that pops up.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Even if you don’t do average reading, based on your criticism of Ashwin not running through sides, Lyon has one only one fifer each in Eng and SA. And Lyon would have a vastly inferior record in Ind to Ashwin, if he was born in India.
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Pretty sure over the course of a career, Lyon would achieve a sub-25 average in India over the course of the last decade and take 5 WPM.

He has improved over each tour here. Same as Ashwin improving in Australia, I don't think he would average 42 if Australia was his home country, maybe more like 35.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
Pretty sure over the course of a career, Lyon would achieve a sub-25 average in India over the course of the last decade and take 5 WPM.

He has improved over each tour here. Same as Ashwin improving in Australia, I don't think he would average 42 if Australia was his home country, maybe more like 35.
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He averages 29 over his last two tours.... His first tour was literally when he was totally out of his depth.
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Even if you don’t do average reading, based on your criticism of Ashwin not running through sides, Lyon has one only one fifer each in Eng and SA. And Lyon would have a vastly inferior record in Ind to Ashwin, if he was born in India.
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If Lyon was born in India he would be a completely different bowler with a totally different type of bowling. Much of the problem with Lyon's record in India and SL is a product of not understanding how to bowl on those pitches, which is why his record has improved with time.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
subshakerz said:
Pretty sure over the course of a career, Lyon would achieve a sub-25 average in India over the course of the last decade and take 5 WPM.

He has improved over each tour here. Same as Ashwin improving in Australia, I don't think he would average 42 if Australia was his home country, maybe more like 35.
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There are too many variables to gauge in this speculation. Let’s agree to disagree here, as I already said that I can see why you might petered a bowler more consistent across conditions. I just don’t think he‘s more good across any of these conditions than Ashwin, as Ashwin is in SC. So let’s agree to disagree here
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Spark said:
If Lyon was born in India he would be a completely different bowler with a totally different type of bowling. Much of the problem with Lyon's record in India and SL is a product of not understanding how to bowl on those pitches, which is why his record has improved with time.
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I agree. But he improves with each tour.

However, in Pakistan, those pitches were concrete, I don't fault him there and thought leaving with a match winning fifer at the end was to his credit.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien said:
There are too many variables to gauge in this speculation. Let’s agree to disagree here, as I already said that I can see why you might petered a bowler more consistent across conditions. I just don’t think he‘s more good across any of these conditions than Ashwin, as Ashwin is in SC.
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I think you are overvaluing SC performance implicitly because it's just a big part of Ashwin's career and not analyzing the 25 tests in SENA critically, but we can disagree.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
Spark said:
If Lyon was born in India he would be a completely different bowler with a totally different type of bowling. Much of the problem with Lyon's record in India and SL is a product of not understanding how to bowl on those pitches, which is why his record has improved with time.
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Fair enough
 
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