Ravichandran Ashwin vs Nathan Lyon

[subshakerz]

Compared to ATGs. Good overall, but nowhere close to ATG level. Substandard only compared to ATG level. Yes Lyon is better in SENA, but not by an enormous amount. Still averages 29 in Eng, 30+ in SA etc. beyond that, Lyon is more consistent across conditions definitely, but Ashwin is a far better matchwinner in SC than Lyon is anywhere. So I’ll take that, but as I said the alternative is perfectly acceptable, and it’s a bit subjective. So I respect your opinion.

I'm not comparing them to ATG.

They are both ATVG level to me.

 

[honestbharani]

I think 80-20 is reasonably close to a consensus...

 

[subshakerz]

I will too, but Subs acts like Lyon is Murali in England and Ashwin is Kumble.... Lyon is better and have won games there (though he played twice the no. of matches and all countries especially makes tougher wickets for spinners when India tours); but the difference isn't behemoth.

That's the crucial difference for me. We have different metric by which we judge bowlers. It's not just average to me but impact as the key factor.

 

[Xix2565]

Ashwin has excellent pace support in his overseas games yet can't win.

He has only had that since 2018, and notably India have fared better since. Still doesn't change the fact on Cummins/Starc/Hazlewood winning games more than Lyon in SENA conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

I think 80-20 is reasonably close to a consensus...

Please share us another Ashwin clip, you're behind schedule.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I'm not comparing them to ATG.

They are both ATVG level to me.

Sure but at best Lyon is good in Aus right? and above average is Eng, poor in SA (has only picked one fifer each). Overall slightly above average in SENA, cause of his good record in NZ(although that is below that 5 match limit for such discussions).

 

[subshakerz]

He has only had that since 2018, and notably India have fared better since. Still doesn't change the fact on Cummins/Starc/Hazlewood winning games more than Lyon in SENA conditions.

I mean, duh, the pacers are winning more games in pace conditions. My expectation for any spinner in SENA is to hold one end tight and when match conditions are right, usually once a series, run through a side to win a game.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

That's the crucial difference for me. We have different metric by which we judge bowlers. It's not just average to me but impact as the key factor.

Bro but then Lyon is not far ahead in SENA right? i mean he has only a single fifer each in Eng and SA, and averages which are not too flattering

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I mean, duh, the pacers are winning more games in pace conditions. My expectation for any spinner in SENA is to hold one end tight and when match conditions are right, usually once a series, run through a side to win a game.

And Lyon has done very rarely. So not that much better than Ashwin there

 

[subshakerz]

Sure but at best Lyon is good in Aus right? and above average is Eng, poor in SA (has only picked one fifer each). Overall slightly above average in SENA, cause of his good record in NZ(although that is below that 5 match limit for such discussions).

I consider him very good in Australia because the conditions for spinners the last 20 or so years I have seen there have been very difficult. Even Warne averaged 29 in the 2000s at home.

 

[honestbharani]

Please share us another Ashwin clip, you're behind schedule.

You may wanna check the thread and its title where I posted those. All you do is read scorecards but I guess you are slipping in the reading part too. This much salt is never good for health.


And yes, Ash >> Lyon. Suck it haterz.

 

[subshakerz]

Bro but then Lyon is not far ahead in SENA right? i mean he has only a single fifer each in Eng and SA, and averages which are not too flattering

SA yes he is ordinary but Ashwin is even worse there.

England, Lyon has improved a lot and had an impact in winning games in both of the last Ashes series. Ashwin has had none.

Aus, Lyon is far ahead.

So it's not particularly close.

 

[Xix2565]

I mean, duh, the pacers are winning more games in pace conditions. My expectation for any spinner in SENA is to hold one end tight and when match conditions are right, usually once a series, run through a side to win a game.

The match conditions haven't always been right though? I showed that with how spin goes in NZ vs certain teams in a different thread. So once again these standards seem a little dubious, made more to prop up a player rather than seeming neutral.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I consider him very good in Australia because the conditions for spinners the last 20 or so years I have seen there have been very difficult. Even Warne averaged 29 in the 2000s at home.

Then you also have to consider Ashwin atleast good in Australia. He also has won a game there. And it's not really like Lyon has won games in England or South Africa with great consistency; and then his performance in Pakistan's home and SL....

 

[subshakerz]

The match conditions haven't always been right though? I showed that with how spin goes in NZ vs certain teams in a different thread. So once again these standards seem a little dubious, made more to prop up a player rather than seeming neutral.

They generalise over the course of a career. We cant keep crying foul everyone Ashwin doesn't get a designer pitch.

 

[honestbharani]

Yes.. "they generalize over a career" is such a fact.

 

[subshakerz]

Then you also have to consider Ashwin atleast good in Australia. He also has won a game there. And it's not really like Lyon has won games in England or South Africa with great consistency; and then his performance in Pakistan's home and SL....

I don't and we've discussed this. He had one good series, yes, but didn't really run through a side outright. So as far as I am concerned, Ashwin has played 25 games in SENA and won zero of them for India. So you can see why I find that an indictment.

Lyon, while I admit Ashwin in better in SC conditions, still won games in Pak and SL despite his high averages there. And has just gotten better and better in India.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

SA yes he is ordinary but Ashwin is even worse there.

England, Lyon has improved a lot and had an impact in winning games in both of the last Ashes series. Ashwin has had none.

Aus, Lyon is far ahead.

So it's not particularly close.

nah their Eng and SA records are very close(both average the same in Eng, and Ashwin has played far less and not gotten as many opportunities to take a fifer as Lyon, and in SA, they both are very bad). Ashwin’s superiority in SC over Lyon is of a higher degree

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't and we've discussed this. He had one good series, yes, but didn't really run through a side outright.

Lyon, while I admit Ashwin in better in SC conditions, still won games in Pak and SL despite his high averages there. And has just gotten better and better in India.

Lyon is the definition of a mid bowler in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. You winning one game is good, but not nearly if you lose 5.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ashwin is superior to Lyon in SC by a degree much higher than Lyon’s superiority to Ashwin in SENA. Both have a very record in WI btw.