Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[capt_Luffy]

Lillee's record against WI is good for me. Pak suffers because of that bad 79 tour and he didn't get a chance to tour again.

But these are all reasons for me he isn't a top level ATG because his record isnt as well rounded.

Lillee averages against Pakistan 28 at home. Removing that tour. He played a single match in WI, was smacked around; heck, he was smacked around in a single match in SL. At home, given some of the pitches made like the infamous 1976 series; I can't consider his record against WI great. It's good, but you're kidding me if you call that ATG level. He only played in a single 3 match series against India. His reputation mostly came from dominating a single team, England. None else, his performance against no one else can be classified ATG worthy (you can count NZ if you want). If you want you can say that's enough, but I don't really think he played in the Pre War Era.

 

[subshakerz]

Lillee averages against Pakistan 28 at home. Removing that tour. He played a single match in WI, was smacked around; heck, he was smacked around in a single match in SL. At home, given some of the pitches made like the infamous 1976 series; I can't consider his record against WI great. It's good, but you're kidding me if you call that ATG level. He only played in a single 3 match series against India. His reputation mostly came from dominating a single team, England. None else, his performance against no one else can be classified ATG worthy (you can count NZ if you want).

Single matches are irrelevant. And I put Lillee at a level with other ATGs pacers with similar problematic records of sorts.

But we don't need to derail this about Lillee suffice to say that the question on who is an ATG pacer or spinner is relative to their competition in their respective discipline. So let's compare Ashwin with Warne, Murali and O'Reilly and see if he belongs in their league.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Single matches are irrelevant. And I put Lillee at a level with other ATGs pacers with similar problematic records of sorts.

But we don't need to derail this about Lillee suffice to say that the question on who is an ATG pacer or spinner is relative to their competition in their respective discipline. So let's compare Ashwin with Warne, Murali and O'Reilly and see if he belongs in their league.

He doesn't, but he can be a lower level ATG. Within ATG spinners, there can be subcategories.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes but Lillee could have failed as well? He could have failed by an even worse manner. Why give him the benefit of doubt? People should be judged basis of what exists only.

I am not giving benefit of the doubt. I demerit Lillee for being unproven but it isn't a disqualifier for him being an ATG given his reputation and otherwise career record.

Absolute failure outside though is a disqualifier in Ashwin's case. It means he is is confirmed as of limited abilities without plausible deniability in Lillee's case.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Single matches are irrelevant. And I put Lillee at a level with other ATGs pacers with similar problematic records of sorts.

But we don't need to derail this about Lillee suffice to say that the question on who is an ATG pacer or spinner is relative to their competition in their respective discipline. So let's compare Ashwin with Warne, Murali and O'Reilly and see if he belongs in their league.

Do Lillee belong in the same league as someone like McGrath, who dominated everywhere and has ATG records in the backyard of some of the best batting units assembled in India and South Africa?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I am not giving benefit of the doubt. I demerit Lillee for being unproven but it isn't a disqualifier for him being an ATG given his reputation and otherwise career record.

Absolute failure outside though is a disqualifier in Ashwin's case. It means he is is confirmed as of limited abilities without plausible deniability in Lillee's case.

Again, Ashwin has a great record in WI as well. Not a complete failure.

 

[subshakerz]

He doesn't, but he can be a lower level ATG. Within ATG spinners, there can be subcategories.

You dont get it, do you? I only have three ATG spinners based on strict criteria. Ashwin clearly doesn't make that cut.

You can do your own ATG criteria if you wish.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, Ashwin has a great record in WI as well. Not a complete failure.

Really? Come on, I expected better of you to dredge that out. These are ATG standards we are talking about.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You dont get it, do you? I only have three ATG spinners based on strict criteria. Ashwin clearly doesn't make that cut.

You can do your own ATG criteria if you wish.

That's the ****ing **** we all were saying all this time along.....

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Do Lillee belong in the same league as someone like McGrath, who dominated everywhere and has ATG records in the backyard of some of the best batting units assembled in India and South Africa?

Exactly

 

[subshakerz]

Do Lillee belong in the same league as someone like McGrath, who dominated everywhere and has ATG records in the backyard of some of the best batting units assembled in India and South Africa?

League? Maybe because Lillee was the best bowler in the world for a long time. Level, no.

 

[subshakerz]

That's the ****ing **** we all were saying all this time along.....

I am not stopping you but please justify it at least. I will raise my reservations.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Really? Come on, I expected better of you to dredge that out. These are ATG standards we are talking about.

I have not voted yes for the Ashwin thing, and I have a similar criteria as you. I am just saying that another criteria could be just as valid. And that whether you're unproved or failed, means you have an incomplete record

 

[capt_Luffy]

League? Maybe because Lillee was the best bowler in the world for a long time. Level, no.

Was he really? His career whole career but two years overlapped with the whole career of Richard Hadlee's; and I would say England had the 5th (or at most 4th) strongest batting among the teams he mostly played. You could argue that Ashwin was the best bowler for a sufficient time also.

 

[Migara]

Sanga flicks hand water in people's faces. Automatic exclusion

Average of 65+ says otherwise.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I am not stopping you but please justify it at least. I will raise my reservations.

I have already given plenty justification I believe. You know, with my 3rd tier of ATG thingy and the fact that Ashwin did fine in England and by context, performed when necessary in Australia; had a great series against a strong batting in SL, was the driving force behind India's home dominance for over a decade and truly only failed in SA.

 

[subshakerz]

I have not voted yes for the Ashwin thing, and I have a similar criteria as you. I am just saying that another criteria could be just as valid. And that whether you're unproved or failed, means you have an incomplete record

I will admit there is some subjectivity in defining these terms. But since young I have heard pundits, commentators and cricketers say 'all-time great' and mostly it has a certain connotation meaning the highest levels in the entire annals of cricket. So I am inclined to opt for exclusive rather than inclusive criteria.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

You dont get it, do you? I only have three ATG spinners based on strict criteria. Ashwin clearly doesn't make that cut.

You can do your own ATG criteria if you wish.

I am not forcing you to agree Subz. I am just positing a possibility, where someone with a more slightly relaxed criteria than you(and me) can legitimately rate Ashwin as an ATG, without diminishing the value of that term.

 

[subshakerz]

I have already given plenty justification I believe. You know, with my 3rd tier of ATG thingy and the fact that Ashwin did fine in England and by context, performed when necessary in Australia; had a great series against a strong batting in SL, was the driving force behind India's home dominance for over a decade and truly only failed in SA.

Which are spinners are in the third tier for you?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I will admit there is some subjectivity in defining these terms. But since young I have heard pundits, commentators and cricketers say 'all-time great' and mostly it has a certain connotation meaning the highest levels in the entire annals of cricket. So I am inclined to opt for exclusive rather than inclusive criteria.

and I agree with you there. But as you, how you define terms is a bit subjective. So I won't mind if people call Ashwin an ATG bowler, cause he is close to entering it.