Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[subshakerz]

If I remember correctly, you said Ashwin and Lillee are similar in the respect of forcing their case through sheer output of wickets rather than a complete record. So if Lillie is a confirmed ATG, can't Ashwin be a borderline ATG by that logic?

Lillee had super high rep unlike Ashwin and wasn't a confirmed fail abroad with fewer opportunities outside Eng/NZ.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Lillee had super high rep unlike Ashwin and wasn't a confirmed fail abroad with fewer opportunities outside Eng/NZ.

But he wasn't a confirmed success either right?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And regarding Ashwin, I wouldn't call him a fail in England. In Australia, I do feel more and more that his stats do not give a full image of how he bowled there

 

[subshakerz]

Is there a problem with bowlers vs batsman end of careers. My perception is that a great bowler gets dropped far quicker than a batsman. So batsman have a harder time maintaing their aura. Is this wrong? I'm just trying to think of great bowlers who got to spend a few years being **** and none spring to mind as readily as a plethora of batsman.

Imran but then he was a too bat at that time.

 

[subshakerz]

But he wasn't a confirmed success either right?

I know. That's why I rank him below other ATGs who were.

 

[subshakerz]

And regarding Ashwin, I wouldn't call him a fail in England. In Australia, I do feel more and more that his stats do not give a full image of how he bowled there

Reminder we are comparing Ashwin to other ATGs and by those standards his England record is sub-par.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I know. That's why I rank him below other ATGs.

So do you atleast agree at the very least Ashwin is very close to being an ATG, since Lillee isn't that far off him, and he's a clear ATG? And that it is a reasonable opinion for someone who has a slightly more inclusive filtering method for ATG's, to have Ashwin as an ATG, just not as high as others?

 

[subshakerz]

So do you atleast agree at the very least Ashwin is very close to being an ATG, since Lillee isn't that far off him, and he's a clear ATG? And that it is a reasonable opinion for someone who has a slightly more inclusive filtering method for ATG's, to have Ashwin as an ATG, just not as high as others?

Ashwin is not close at all. His competition is more Gibbs, Kumble, etc. than Murali, Warne and O'Reilly whom I consider the confirmed ATGs. There is a clear gulf between them. The latter bowlers have generally maintained worldclass standards across conditions and achieved the highest peer rating possible much before they retired.

Again, Ashwin is like Anderson, a guy who hit his ceiling as a regular great a long time ago and who occasionally gets thrown around carelessly as an ATG. I resent their ATG title because I feel it cheapens folks like Steyn and Warne to be put in the same bracket as bowlers like them. Makes the ATG title somewhat meaningless frankly.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ashwin is not close at all. His competition is more Gibbs, Kumble, etc. than Murali, Warne and O'Reilly whom I consider the confirmed ATGs.

Again, Ashwin is like Anderson, a guy who hit his ceiling as a regular great a long time ago and who occasionally gets thrown around carelessly as an ATG. I resent their ATG title because I feel it cheapens folks like Steyn and Warne to be out in the same bracket as bowlers like them. Makes the ATG title somewhat meaningless frankly.

Yep but if Lillee is a clear ATG, and you have earlier(in another thread), compared their cases as somewhat earlier, Ashwin is hence close to being one at least: as you said earlier through sheer load of wickets in India, SL, Wi.

 

[Shri]

bhenchod 31 pages

****ing morons

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ashwin is not close at all. His competition is more Gibbs, Kumble, etc. than Murali, Warne and O'Reilly whom I consider the confirmed ATGs. There is a clear gulf between them. The latter bowlers have generally maintained worldclass standards across conditions and achieved the highest peer rating possible much before they retired.

Again, Ashwin is like Anderson, a guy who hit his ceiling as a regular great a long time ago and who occasionally gets thrown around carelessly as an ATG. I resent their ATG title because I feel it cheapens folks like Steyn and Warne to be put in the same bracket as bowlers like them. Makes the ATG title somewhat meaningless frankly.

Lillee's WPM is like Ashwin's WPM, built on a couple of countries so you can't take it too seriously. Lillee just has a better reputation. I think these were your words in earlier thread

 

[Socerer 01]

As expected this thread has devolved into people arguing because they have different criteria for ATG, a term with no universal meaning.

why use many word when few word do trick

“my atg is better than your atg”

- this thread, 2024

 

[subshakerz]

Yep but if Lillee is a clear ATG, and you have earlier(in another thread), compared their cases as somewhat earlier, Ashwin is hence close to being one at least: as you said earlier through sheer load of wickets in India, SL, Wi.

There is a world of difference between not having enough opportunities abroad versus multiple series in SA, Eng and Aus and nothing to show that is comparable with worldclass standards (yes even BG 2021 is well, well below what Murali and Warne did multiple times in SENA).

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

why use many word when few word do trick

you're a wise and succinct person, brother.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

There is a world of difference between not having enough opportunities abroad versus multiple series in SA, Eng and Aus and nothing to show that is comparable with worldclass standards (yes even BG 2021 is well, well below what Murali and Warne did multiple times in SENA).

Although in both cases, the consequence is that you are unproven right? Even if he had a chance, who knows what he would have done? can't give the benefit of doubt

 

[subshakerz]

Although in both cases, the consequence is that you are unproven right? Even if he had a chance, who knows what he would have done? can't give the benefit of doubt

No. Lillee is unproven. Ashwin is a confirmed fail by ATG standards. There is no 'what-if' in Ashwin's case.

 

[Ashwinashwath]

How is one even measured on his own skills alone If the fielding standards were sub par and when one of the best fielding hands in business, Kohli for instance dropped a sitter a couple of years back where he even placed his hands on his head in vain venting his frustration - had he been an Aussie team member his wickets count would have been 550 by now.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No. Lillee is unproven. Ashwin is a confirmed fail by ATGs. There is no 'what-if' in Ashwin's case.

Lillee averages 30+ against Pakistan, and he played them 17 times; and he pulls 27 against WI in 12 games; and he have played them almost solely in home; in favourable conditions, sometimes even deadly ones like 1976. He played India in a single 3 match series; by far most of his success is against a decent, but not really great English team, and a weak NZ. His reputation is built severely on the simple fact that England and Australia had the most journalistic power in cricket.

 

[subshakerz]

Lillee averages 30+ against Pakistan, and he played them 17 times; and he pulls 27 against WI in 12 games; and he have played them almost solely in home; in favourable conditions, sometimes even deadly ones like 1976. He played India in a single 3 match series; by far most of his success is against a decent, but not really great English team, and a weak NZ. His reputation is built severely on the simple fact that England and Australia had the most journalistic power in cricket.

Lillee's record against WI is good for me. Pak suffers because of that bad 79 tour and he didn't get a chance to tour again.

But these are all reasons for me he isn't a top level ATG because his record isnt as well rounded. He battles it out with Trueman and Waism who have their own problems with their overall record.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

No. Lillee is unproven. Ashwin is a confirmed fail by ATG standards. There is no 'what-if' in Ashwin's case.

Yes but Lillee could have failed as well? He could have failed by an even worse manner. Why give him the benefit of doubt? People should be judged basis of what exists only.