Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[subshakerz]

O’Reilly played in the flattest pitch there has ever been bowling to arguably the greatest batting lineup ever assembled. Outside of tests, Tiger is The GOAT bowler in Sheffield Shield history. The reputation is at least similar and tbh better than Murali/ Warne etc.

From Wisden,

He played 27 Test matches and took 144 wickets - 102 of them Englishmen and the vital wicket of Walter Hammond ten times - averaging 22.59. But his figures have to be judged by the fact that all but one of his Tests came in the 1930s, when other bowlers were dominated by batsmen to an unprecedented extent. No one ever dominated O'Reilly. Even when England made 903 at The Oval in 1938, he bowled 85 overs and finished with figures of three for 178. And before that, he had secured the Ashes by taking five for 66 and five for 56 at Headingley.

This guy is just arguing for the sake of arguing when it comes to old spinners. He desperately wants Ashwin to be an ATG and a cheap way to do it is just cast doubt on all the old timers to smuggle Ashwin into this title.

The moment I would say Ashwin is an ATG, expect all this suspicion and scrutiny for old timers to drop magically.

 

[Xix2565]

Not disputing players stats.


Yes runs mostly on the flatter decks in between the spin friendly wickets, on which their averages also dropped. I never claimed every pitch was spin friendly, but they were more common in this past decade.

But if your point was the last decade was mostly flat decks, ok. Or maybe youre just arguing for the sake of it.


You made a general claim about old timer pitches and I disputed the evidence for it.


What argument am I making for Lyon? Only that he had tougher home wickets and has done generally well. Dispute that if you wish.


Ashwin isnt even clearly better than Lyon to me based on career performance.

Let's stop arguing. This is going in circles.

You haven't shown that they were more common at all, so prove it first. Again, don't pretend that your claims are substantiated just because you said so.

Your disputes aren't sufficient enough to discard the point.

So what? If he's underperformed vs his best peers then he's worse, and doesn't have to be considered ATG like Ashwin. My whole point about Lyon was that he has a weaker case in general even with his strengths.

Yes, we know your eye for evaluating cricketers is faulty, big deal.

So since you've given up, it's pretty clear to the masses that Ashwin is an ATG. Thanks for participating.

 

[Xix2565]

This guy is just arguing for the sake of arguing when it comes to old spinners. He desperately wants Ashwin to be an ATG and a cheap way to do it is just cast doubt on all the old timers to smuggle Ashwin into this title.

You've basically done the same against Ashwin, so it's hard to consider your points in a fairer context. And considering you've given up already, why continue to post here?

 

[Xix2565]

O’Reilly played in the flattest pitch there has ever been bowling to arguably the greatest batting lineup ever assembled. Outside of tests, Tiger is The GOAT bowler in Sheffield Shield history. The reputation is at least similar and tbh better than Murali/ Warne etc.

From Wisden,

He played 27 Test matches and took 144 wickets - 102 of them Englishmen and the vital wicket of Walter Hammond ten times - averaging 22.59. But his figures have to be judged by the fact that all but one of his Tests came in the 1930s, when other bowlers were dominated by batsmen to an unprecedented extent. No one ever dominated O'Reilly. Even when England made 903 at The Oval in 1938, he bowled 85 overs and finished with figures of three for 178. And before that, he had secured the Ashes by taking five for 66 and five for 56 at Headingley.

The 1930s in SENA weren't that batting friendly overall in SENA: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...bowling_average;template=results;type=bowling

And when it comes to spinners: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...bowling_average;template=results;type=bowling

I get the points for O'Reilly, but I don't think you can claim his case to be that clear just based on pitches. The Wisden quote is basically what Subshakerz hates about Ashwin in Australia in 18-19 and 20-21, or other such examples about players.

 

[subshakerz]

You've basically done the same against Ashwin, so it's hard to consider your points in a fairer context. And considering you've given up already, why continue to post here?

I actually don't need to refer to the old timer spinners to argue my point on whether Ashwin is an ATG.

You do tho just to prop up Ashwin, and I am glad you stated it here for all to see that ultimately it was a hollow argument by your own admission.

 

[Xix2565]

I actually don't need to refer to the old timer spinners to argue my point on whether Ashwin is an ATG.

You do tho just to prop up Ashwin, and I am glad you stated it here for all to see that ultimately it was a hollow argument by your own admission.

When I ask about your standards, it matters right? I'm judging your points based in that context.

I didn't admit anything other than pointing out you have holes in your points about evaluating players like Ashwin. You would understand this if you could read, but we've sadly established that you find it very difficult.

 

[subshakerz]

When I ask about your standards, it matters right? I'm judging your points based in that context.

I didn't admit anything other than pointing out you have holes in your points about evaluating players like Ashwin. You would understand this if you could read, but we've sadly established that you find it very difficult.

Nah. I basically said you are trying to cast doubt on old timers to prop up Ashwin.

Your response was effectively 'Well if you can do the reverse to downgrade Ashwin, why can't I do this?'

Except I haven't needed old time spinners to make my case. But you did admit clearly that is what you are doing, convenient arguing to make your player more special. Sad but thanks for your rare slip of honesty.

 

[Xix2565]

Nah. I basically said you are trying to cast doubt on old timers to prop up Ashwin.

Your response was effectively 'Well if you can do the reverse to downgrade Ashwin, why can't I do this?'

Except I haven't needed old time spinners to make my case. But you did admit clearly that is what you are doing, convenient arguing to make your player more special. Sad.

It isn't a prop up to say your standards are poor when it comes to evaluating players.

You've basically asked for people to say who else is an ATG spinner and judged on that, you clearly do need old spinners for your case. Don't you cast doubt when other people make lists that don't fit with your own judgement? Sad is when you decide that you're somewhat superior despite being **** as always.

 

[Line and Length]

Downgrade one to rate another

There's been more than a fair bit of this going on in this thread.

 

[centurymaker]

The danger of rating Ashwin as ATG is that it opens the door to consider Lyon ATG, who performs across all conditions and has the hardest home conditions of all to bowl in, and that is a door that should not be opened.

Lyon averages 30.8 in Asia (140 wickets) including 27.3 in India.

I am sure Ashwin is a whole lot better in India and Asia. So no door is being opened.

 

[Line and Length]

Lyon averages 30.8 in Asia (140 wickets) including 27.3 in India.

I am sure Ashwin is a whole lot better in India and Asia. So no door is being opened.

... and the door is closed on Ashwin given his Australia/South Africa/New Zealand/England figures.

 

[honestbharani]

He has outbowled Lyon in Australia. As I said, Ash is easily ATG as a spinner and a tier above Lyon. Rest is just straw clutching.

 

[Line and Length]

He has outbowled Lyon in Australia. As I said, Ash is easily ATG as a spinner and a tier above Lyon. Rest is just straw clutching.

Unless you are cherry picking the odd game, you can't possibly believe that.
Ashwin has 39 wickets @ 42.15 in Australia compared to Lyon's 259 @ 30.88
The only measurement he is ahead of Lyon in Australia is WPM and that is only just (3.9 v 3.86).

Lyon is clearly a better bowler in Australia over his yet to be completed career. In India very little separates their bowling averages with Ashwin averaging 26.82 to Lyons 27.36

Both are very good bowlers but not quite ATGs for me.

Edit: I have Ashwin's batting average (26.82) above. His bowling average (21.01) is much better than Lyon's.

 

[ma1978]

Actually, I think we have made common understanding. What we call ATVG they consider low level ATG.

Yes, it’s about cutoffs. I wouldn’t consider Ashwin one of the top 30 players in history to play international cricket.

but he’s definitely 30-60 and wherein the list is a matterof taste

The danger of rating Ashwin as ATG is that it opens the door to consider Lyon ATG, who performs across all conditions and has the hardest home conditions of all to bowl in, and that is a door that should not be opened.

The difference in numbers is too vast to open any doors

 

[ma1978]

Yeah, I would like to see how Tendulkar get ahead of Ashwin but Gavaskar does not.

Tendulkar was better than Gavaskar alns Better for a longer period. Not that hard

 

[Xix2565]

Unless you are cherry picking the odd game, you can't possibly believe that.
Ashwin has 39 wickets @ 42.15 in Australia compared to Lyon's 259 @ 30.88
The only measurement he is ahead of Lyon in Australia is WPM and that is only just (3.9 v 3.86).

Lyon is clearly a better bowler in Australia over his yet to be completed career. In India very little separates their bowling averages with Ashwin averaging 26.82 to Lyons 27.36

Both are very good bowlers but not quite ATGs for me.

What stats are you using here? The India one makes no sense whether you're using all games in India (like for all games in Australia for the first figure) or just India vs Australia Tests.

 

[Line and Length]

What stats are you using here? The India one makes no sense whether you're using all games in India (like for all games in Australia for the first figure) or just India vs Australia Tests.

My error. I quoted Ashwin's batting average. Thanks for spotting the obvious error.
Ashwin's bowling average in India is 21.01 - significantly superior to Lyon's. Just as Lyon's average in Australia is significantly superior to Ashwin's.

 

[Xix2565]

My error. I quoted Ashwin's batting average. Thanks for spotting the obvious error.
Ashwin's bowling average in India is 21.01 - significantly superior to Lyon's. Just as Lyon's average in Australia is significantly superior to Ashwin's.

No problem, just confused for a second there.

 

[Socerer 01]

Downgrade one to rate another

There's been more than a fair bit of this going on in this thread.

1st time to an atg thread?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lyon > Ashwin