Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[Slifer]

Ok I won't rehash the recent debate but I already grant Smith vs high quality spin.

Therefore you're not convinced of him vs high quality pace. Using Sachin as a marker, when was he successful vs high quality pace? I can think of only the following:

Australia (a): '99 averaging 46
WI (a): '97 averaging 58 zero 100s
Australia (h): '01 averaging 51. One 100.
Zero notable series vs Pakistan or RSA in the 90s

Smith in 2017 in RSA alone trumps all of the above. But we won't go down that rabbit hole again so I'll stop. Needless to say, Smith is on the same plain as the other 2nd best after Bradman unless his career completely tanks from here on out.


Ps that comparison in a prior post to Sangakkara was completely absurd and you know that.

 

[Slifer]

Ok so just to be clear:

- Smiths home average, and by extension his overall average, are inflated. Which is why I won't be as swayed if he retires even on 57ish.

- Smith away average is impressive but not historically exceptional. At the very least you have Tendulkar who matches it. Granted guys like Kallis, Sanga and Dravid with the same away average may have had an easier time.

- Smith has a great record against high quality spin but in terms of facing ATG pace, he did so but to a lesser extent IMO than the top tier batters he is being compared to.

If you're saying he faced quality pace less often than Sachin (and even Lara) then yes, I can agree with this. Sachin after all, did play 200 tests. If you say Sachin did better vs quality pace, then that's patently false.

 

[subshakerz]

If you're saying he faced quality pace less often than Sachin (and even Lara) then yes, I can agree with this.

Yes much less in comparison.

 

[subshakerz]

Therefore you're not convinced of him vs high quality pace. Using Sachin as a marker, when was he successful vs high quality pace? I can think of only the following:

Australia (a): '99 averaging 46
WI (a): '97 averaging 58 zero 100s
Australia (h): '01 averaging 51. One 100.
Zero notable series vs Pakistan or RSA in the 90s

Vs Steyn in 2010 too.

Smith in 2017 in RSA alone trumps all of the above. But we won't go down that rabbit hole again so I'll stop. Needless to say, Smith is on the same plain as the other 2nd best after Bradman unless his career completely tanks from here on out.

You mean Smith in 2014 in SA, since he flopped in 2018? A good series granted, not quite up there with Sachin in SA 2010, but it was the only time in Smith's career he faced an ATG pacer, which is my point.

I agree Smith has a case for best after Bradman like the others, never denied it. But explaining my preference for others who faced a larger share of ATGs.

Ps that comparison in a prior post to Sangakkara was completely absurd and you know that.

Point was not to get swayed by a big average inflated by home numbers. That point stands.

 

[Slifer]

Vs Steyn in 2010 too.


You mean Smith in 2014 in SA, since he flopped in 2018? A good series granted, not quite up there with Sachin in SA 2010, but it was the only time in Smith's career he faced an ATG pacer, which is my point.

I agree Smith has a case for best after Bradman like the others, never denied it. But explaining my preference for others who faced a larger share of ATGs.


Point was not to get swayed by a big average inflated by home numbers. That point stands.

Smith faced and made runs vs a completely superior attack; an atg attack. That 2010 attack was good, but not remotely great. Nice try though.

The dude averages 50+ away and he's the only one currently doing that. In Sachins time Dravid, S Waugh, Kallis etc all averaged 50+ away. Smith has to get credit for that. This isn't a case like Lara who was great at home but very good away, Smith is outstanding at home and great away. Would people prefer he be even at home and away? Like Sachin? That makes no sense whatsoever. And wickets in India have never ever been conducive to pace, so let's demerit Sachin for not doing as well at home in conditions unfavorable to pace....smh

FWIW, Bumrah and Rabada will be greats by the time they're done, and so are Broad and Anderson (in England). Smith has faced all three with varying degrees of success and failures.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

2019 ashes was an ATG series against high quality pace in difficult batting conditions

 

[subshakerz]

Smith faced and made runs vs a completely superior attack; an atg attack. That 2010 attack was good, but not remotely great. Nice try though.

The dude averages 50+ away and he's the only one currently doing that. In Sachins time Dravid, S Waugh, Kallis etc all averaged 50+ away. Smith has to get credit for that. This isn't a case like Lara who was great at home but very good away, Smith is outstanding at home and great away. Would people prefer he be even at home and away? Like Sachin? That makes no sense whatsoever. And wickets in India have never ever been conducive to pace, so let's demerit Sachin for not doing as well at home in conditions unfavorable to pace....smh

FWIW, Bumrah and Rabada will be greats by the time they're done, and so are Broad and Anderson (in England). Smith has faced all three with varying degrees of success and failures.

Dude, I am talking about facing ATG pacers. Smith only faced one true one, Steyn, in one series in his entire career. Rabada ain't going to be an ATG. Bumrah maybe but even he was unfit in his only series against Smith. I will happily grant that Smith is a run machine against average to good attacks. I would have liked to see more of him against ATG pacers but we haven't, not that it is his fault.

We can disagree about the 2010 vs 2014 series. 2010, Tendulkar was playing a lone hand somewhat in his two tons and Steyn was at his absolute peak in that series if you watched it. 2014, the entire SA bowling lineup bowled rubbish for some reason when Smith scored a ton and his other fifty was when Steyn was injured and out of the attack. A fine series but don't pretend it was the stuff of legends.

Yes, I give credit for Smith averaging 54 away in his era. But I maintain, it is not as historically exceptional as you are making it out to be, since there are plenty of bats like Chappell, Gavaskar, Border, Waugh, and Tendulkar who averaged the same or thereabouts in more competitive bowling eras.

What is exceptional in Smith's case is well-rounded record across countries, like Tendulkar, and unprecedented home bashing. In his peak, he was averaging 94 at home on Aussie flat tracks, and since the pitches are more sporting the last 4-5 years, he averages 46. Any analysis of Smith that doesn't acknowledge an eight point home/away difference is misleading.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Smith would do fine against a fit Bumrah. And Rabada is an ATG

 

[Fuller Pilch]

- Smith has a great record against high quality spin but in terms of facing ATG pace, he did so but to a lesser extent IMO than the top tier batters he is being compared to.

It is a real shame that Jamieson is injured again as it would've been fascinating to see how Smith coped with him.

 

[subshakerz]

It is a real shame that Jamieson is injured again as it would've been fascinating to see how Smith coped with him.

I agree. I actually think Smith would have handled him well.

 

[Slifer]

Dude, I am talking about facing ATG pacers. Smith only faced one true one, Steyn, in one series in his entire career. Rabada ain't going to be an ATG. Bumrah maybe but even he was unfit in his only series against Smith. I will happily grant that Smith is a run machine against average to good attacks. I would have liked to see more of him against ATG pacers but we haven't, not that it is his fault.

We can disagree about the 2010 vs 2014 series. 2010, Tendulkar was playing a lone hand somewhat in his two tons and Steyn was at his absolute peak in that series if you watched it. 2014, the entire SA bowling lineup bowled rubbish for some reason when Smith scored a ton and his other fifty was when Steyn was injured and out of the attack. A fine series but don't pretend it was the stuff of legends.

Yes, I give credit for Smith averaging 54 away in his era. But I maintain, it is not as historically exceptional as you are making it out to be, since there are plenty of bats like Chappell, Gavaskar, Border, Waugh, and Tendulkar who averaged the same or thereabouts in more competitive bowling eras.

What is exceptional in Smith's case is well-rounded record across countries, like Tendulkar, and unprecedented home bashing. In his peak, he was averaging 94 at home on Aussie flat track, and since the pitches are more sporting the last 4-5 years, he averages 46. Any analysis of Smith that doesn't acknowledge an eight point home/away difference is misleading.

What? Bowled rubbish? That's completely irrelevant. Smith made runs vs an atg attack plain and simple. Then you follow it up by saying Steyn was injured the other time Smith made runs .

You keep harping on Smith's home tracks. Should we demerit Sachin for not doing as well on Indian wickets even less conducive to pace? No. So give the Smith home stuff a rest.

Anyway, you already conceded Smith is one of the players in the running for 2nd best. At least you acknowledge that. That'll do.

 

[subshakerz]

What? Bowled rubbish? That's completely irrelevant. Smith made runs vs an atg attack plain and simple. Then you follow it up by saying Steyn was injured the other time Smith made runs .

Yes, they both made runs against an ATG bowler and get that baseline credit but that doesnt mean we ignore the bowling performance in assessing their runs. In one case, Smith was served pies when he tonned and in Tendulkar's case, he scored tons against some of Steyn's greatest ever spells. Tendulkar's was a much better series.

And yeah, Steyn's was injured in the third test and had to pull out before Smith scored his 84.

You keep harping on Smith's home tracks. Should we demerit Sachin for not doing as well on Indian wickets even less conducive to pace? No. So give the Smith home stuff a rest.

If there is evidence that the home tracks, which represent a major portion of a career, are exceptionally batting friendly outside of the norm, then we do take that into account and don't take Smith's average at face value.

Anyway, you already conceded Smith is one of the players in the running for 2nd best. At least you acknowledge that. That'll do.

I did that at the outset. This is point to distinguish him from other 'best after Bradman' candidates.

 

[Slifer]

Yes, they both made runs against an ATG bowler and get that baseline credit but that doesnt mean we ignore the bowling performance in assessing their runs. In one case, Smith was served pies when he tonned and in Tendulkar's case, he scored tons against some of Steyn's greatest ever spells. Tendulkar's was a much better series.

And yeah, Steyn's was injured in the third test and had to pull out before Smith scored his 84.


If there is evidence that the home tracks, which represent a major portion of a career, are exceptionally batting friendly outside of the norm, then we do take that into account and don't take Smith's average at face value.


I did that at the outset. This is point to distinguish him from other 'best after Bradman' candidates.

No. Smith made runs vs an atg attack. Sachin made runs vs an atg bowler. Atg attack > atg bowler, that's not even debatable.

Afaic, tracks in India, in Sachins, time as now, were even less conducive to pace than what Smith batted on (in Australia). That Smith capitalized more is being held against him is odd. Oh well...

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, everyone's on Subz, but he isn't the one who believes that any of the 3 doesn't belong in the argument.

Just trying to identify distinguishing factors.

 

[subshakerz]

No. Smith made runs vs an atg attack. Sachin made runs vs an atg bowler. Atg attack > atg bowler, that's not even debatable.

Sure it was a better attack on paper for the test that Smith tonned in. In reality, they bowled tosh whereas Steyn was producing awesome spells against Tendulkar. Again, my concern is more ATG-level bowlers that they faced respectively and at least we can agree, Smith only really faced Steyn then and that is it.

Afaic, tracks in India, in Sachins, time as now, were even less conducive to pace than what Smith batted on (in Australia). That Smith capitalized more is being held against him is odd. Oh well...

I personally think Aussie pitches around mid-2010s were some of the most batting friendly I had ever seen. I would never imagine a Pakistani like Azhar Ali scoring a doubleton against an Aussie attack, for example.

 

[Slifer]

Sure it was a better attack on paper for the test that Smith tonned in. In reality, they bowled tosh whereas Steyn was producing awesome spells against Tendulkar. Again, my concern is more ATG-level bowlers that they faced respectively and at least we can agree, Smith only really faced Steyn then and that is it.


I personally think Aussie pitches around mid-2010s were some of the most batting friendly I had ever seen. I would never imagine a Pakistani like Azhar Ali scoring a doubleton against an Aussie attack, for example.

Yeah and two of the greats of our time struggle in Australia: Root and Williamson.

 

[Coronis]

Yes, they both made runs against an ATG bowler and get that baseline credit but that doesnt mean we ignore the bowling performance in assessing their runs. In one case, Smith was served pies when he tonned and in Tendulkar's case, he scored tons against some of Steyn's greatest ever spells. Tendulkar's was a much better series.

And yeah, Steyn's was injured in the third test and had to pull out before Smith scored his 84.


If there is evidence that the home tracks, which represent a major portion of a career, are exceptionally batting friendly outside of the norm, then we do take that into account and don't take Smith's average at face value.


I did that at the outset. This is point to distinguish him from other 'best after Bradman' candidates.

Average in Australia during Smith’s time: 33.76

Average in India during Sachin’s time: 35.36

Smith has super inflated home average that doesn’t count though.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, everyone's on Subz, but he isn't the one who believes that any of the 3 doesn't belong in the argument.

Just trying to identify distinguishing factors.

Yes. I am pointing out the weakness in Smith but he is up there. But to summarize the weaknesses as I see in 'best after Bradman' candidates:

Tendulkar - Lack of standout series

Viv - Below ATG level after peak

Sobers - Minor blemishes in overall record in and against countries

Hobbs - The whole pre-professional era question

Smith - Lack of ATG bowlers faced and home inflation

 

[subshakerz]

Average in Australia during Smith’s time: 33.76

Average in India during Sachin’s time: 35.36

Smith has super inflated home average that doesn’t count though.

What period are you talking about? I would admit Australia the last couple of years is more bowling friendly, not so in the 2010s.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah, everyone's on Subz, but he isn't the one who believes that any of the 3 doesn't belong in the argument.

Just trying to identify distinguishing factors.

Idk about anyone else but I'm on subz case because he's being disingenuous and dismissive as usual. For example, he says Smith's record is inflated because Smith's feasted at home. Each and everyone of us has pointed out that Smith is the only current player averaging 50+ away. Then Subz would say that's good and all but, nothing special because others like Chappell, Sachin, Waugh etc did the same. He's probably trolling but the rest of us think that fact alone is amazing.