Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[subshakerz]

Can’t tell if you’re joking. England was brutal to bat in for last decade. Look at the bowling averages there. NZ, SL, WI have been pretty tough to tour at times as well post 2015. The WI bowlers have ATG stats at home.

England really depends on the tour. Ashes 2013 and 2015 weren't as bowling friendly as 2019, maybe someone can correct me. NZ was pretty dry wickets in 2015/16 when Aus toured.

Anyways, broader point is that Smiths away record is not by itself that far ahead of others. Home is where he stuffed his pockets more relative to other ATGs.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Australian pitches haven’t been really that flat over the last 4-5 years. The 21/22 ashes had really spicy pitches. They were really flat before Smith got banned though.

 

[subshakerz]

The difference between them away (not counting Tendulkar) and Smith is; most of them cashed in on flat pitches away to get those numbers, the pitches in Smith's time in Australia are no flatter than mid 2000s Indian or Australian pitches. But Smith has maintained a frankly ludicrous average even away from home by performing in not some so friendly and much much more challenging conditions.....

His away average isn't ludicrous. His home flat track average is.

 

[subshakerz]

Australian pitches haven’t been really that flat over the last 4-5 years. The 21/22 ashes had really spicy pitches. They were really flat before Smith got banned though.

Yeah and that was most of his peak. Last 4-5 years his home average has dropped significantly.

 

[capt_Luffy]

His away average isn't ludicrous. His home flat track average is.

I don't know about you, but he has more than proven himself in some very tough conditions in India and England for me. Right now, he does lacks a great SA tour, but I don't really have much doubts over him doing well there.....

 

[subshakerz]

I don't know about you, but he has more than proven himself in some very tough conditions in India and England for me. Right now, he does lacks a great SA tour, but I don't really have much doubts over him doing well there.....

He is proven but his monster output needs to be seen as inflated, that's all.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hutton is in my top 4 bats, so I'd rather get rid of a middle order bat.

But even if you rank Hutton a lot lower, it's a huge ask of Smith to do enough in a few years to displace him.

In my team, Hutton isn't there already and neither is Gavaskar. I have Hobbs and Grace opening, and for me personally, Smith isn't really competing for the opener spot as those two are shoo ins.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

England really depends on the tour. Ashes 2013 and 2015 weren't as bowling friendly as 2019, maybe someone can correct me. NZ was pretty dry wickets in 2015/16 when Aus toured.

Anyways, broader point is that Smiths away record is not by itself that far ahead of others. Home is where he stuffed his pockets more relative to other ATGs.

Chris Woakes averages like 21 at home. He’s not doing that in batting friendly conditions lol. Opposition bowling averages are pretty low there as well.

Kohli doesn’t average low 30s in England in batting friendly conditions lol. It’s probably why Cook’s home average is relatively low compared to Sehwag and Hayden.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

I agree that Smith's home record is inflated by flat pitches for most of his career. But I think Subs is underselling how good his away average is. That mid 50s away average including plenty of tough opponents and tough pitches is what makes him special. His home average obviously looks pretty but isn't way ahead of his peers.

Chris Woakes averages like 21 at home. He’s not doing that in batting friendly conditions lol.

He could do though.

 

[kyear2]

I don't know about you, but he has more than proven himself in some very tough conditions in India and England for me. Right now, he does lacks a great SA tour, but I don't really have much doubts over him doing well there.....

I believe that all three of these gentlemen have proven themselves in adverse conditions ve quality attacks.

He is proven but his monster output needs to be seen as inflated, that's all.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration tbh.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I believe that all three of these gentlemen have proven themselves in adverse conditions ve quality attacks.

Yeah, they have. But Subs was adamant his numbers are highly inflated, which just isn't really the case. Most of them have their fair share on roads.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Even Bangladesh can be tough to bat in for overseas batsmen these days. Look at Kohli and Williamson’s last tour there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Even Bangladesh can be tough to bat in for overseas batsmen these days. Look at Kohli and Williamson’s last tour there.

Tbf Smith's Bangladesh numbers are poor

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Tbf Smith's Bangladesh numbers are poor

Root averages 20 there too lol. Clearly the toughest challenge in this era.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kemar Roach and Jason Holder average low 20s at home. Similar conditions to England I think?

 

[Coronis]

His away average isn't ludicrous. His home flat track average is.

Yes it is lol. His away average is far, far superior compared to his peers than his home average.

 

[Slifer]

Neither has Smith in the few times he got to play such bowling. But Tendulkar at least faced more.

I hope you're going through your troll phase again because you know this is patently untrue. Smith's prior tour to India in 2017, almost 500 runs, 3 hundreds and 70+ average vs Jadeja, Ashwin, Yadav and Sharma. South Africa 2014, England 2015, 2019, NZ 2016, etc. Particularly the South African and Indian tours, if you can show me where Sachin did better vs a superior attack I'll shut up.

Facing challenging attacks is one thing, making runs vs them is another. Smith more than passes this stipulation.

 

[Slifer]

Kemar Roach and Jason Holder average low 20s at home. Similar conditions to England I think?

It'll be how Smith goes in the WI. He hasn't toured there since wi's attack became decent at home.

 

[subshakerz]

I hope you're going through your troll phase again because you know this is patently untrue. Smith's prior tour to India in 2017, almost 500 runs, 3 hundreds and 70+ average vs Jadeja, Ashwin, Yadav and Sharma. South Africa 2014, England 2015, 2019, NZ 2016, etc. Particularly the South African and Indian tours, if you can show me where Sachin did better vs a superior attack I'll shut up.

Facing challenging attacks is one thing, making runs vs them is another. Smith more than passes this stipulation.

Ok I won't rehash the recent debate but I already grant Smith vs high quality spin.

 

[subshakerz]

I agree that Smith's home record is inflated by flat pitches for most of his career. But I think Subs is underselling how good his away average is. That mid 50s away average including plenty of tough opponents and tough pitches is what makes him special. His home average obviously looks pretty but isn't way ahead of his peers.


He could do though.

Ok so just to be clear:

- Smiths home average, and by extension his overall average, are inflated. Which is why I won't be as swayed if he retires even on 57ish.

- Smith away average is impressive but not historically exceptional. At the very least you have Tendulkar who matches it. Granted guys like Kallis, Sanga and Dravid with the same away average may have had an easier time.

- Smith has a great record against high quality spin but in terms of facing ATG pace, he did so but to a lesser extent IMO than the top tier batters he is being compared to.