Arachnodouche
International Captain
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*Official* England in India 2023/24 #CryMoreTour
- Thread starter mackembhoy
- Start date
Sunil1z
International Regular
WTF ? Didn’t expect this from you.Cowbelt Twitter
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Cow urine states? That's better.
Zinzan
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I know it's stating the obvious, but the 2-1 series score line once again supports the argument about the huge advantage of winning the toss in India (and of course batting). I recall OS in the past arguing this is some sort of myth but I've never seen any evidence to support this outside India still winning some games after losing the toss and batted second - but that's more of a function of how strong they are at home.
I stand to be corrected, but I'm assuming every Test win from an away team in India in the last decade or so has been achieved after they won the toss and batted.
I stand to be corrected, but I'm assuming every Test win from an away team in India in the last decade or so has been achieved after they won the toss and batted.
Sunil1z
International Regular
Aus won the test by bowling first last year .
Even England won Test series in 2012 by bowling first in both Test they won on that tour . I think there is enough correction for the day .
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Its a self defeating point tbh, as the toss advantage is usually nullified the most when you have tracks that turn consistently from day 1. And with the 9:30 AM winter starts to our tests, there is usually enough happening on day 1 with the moisture and overhead that bowlers (both pacers and spinners) get significant help off the pitch for the first session.
Even in Hyd in the first test, England threw away pretty good batting conditions having had a tough start due to the moisture in the wicket enabling turn and bounce. I think OS' original point was the toss had less impact in India than in other places and I think that has been largely true in the post MSD era. I do think we have been so ridiculously strong at home that even if the away team wins the toss, its pretty much tough for them. But then again, we have significantly weaker in tests post covid at home, especially since the Pant accident.
Shri
Mr. Glass
That's exactly what you expect from subpar people like him
Shri
Mr. Glass
Teams who can bat time after winning toss have an advantage. This eng team is not capable of batting for 130+ overs and grinding any strong team. In fact that's why they score quickly. Not an accusation or anything but this is how they maximize their output. Unfortunately it is dependent on the surface or the ball doing nothing and is not a great formula even on slightly hard conditions. Unless someone plays a great individual innings plus the opposition messing up.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Of course some will never like it but I think a big part of the dislike is how up themselves England are about it. You could express practically all the same sentiments without sounding nearly as arrogant and hubristic but that's not McCullum's style. You can argue that they're boosting themselves with the bravado, but don't be surprised when people push back on the slightest perceived flaw despite the fact their results have been much better. It's annoying and gets responded to accordingly.
Spark
Global Moderator
You'd bloody well hope his career hadn't peaked at 21yo with only 7 games under his belt!
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Similar starts for both with couple of double centuries. Really hope his career doesn't pan out the way Kambli's did.
Spark
Global Moderator
The main curiosity for me is how he deals with consistent short ball bowling on bouncy pitches because like many young India batsmen he doesn't try to keep his pull-shot on the ground, which is dangerous in places like Australia, and also whether he has a slight weakness against away movement to balls angles across him (who doesn't tbf). Otherwise he looks a pretty complete player, but even so he's been around like five minutes. Let's just let the kid learn and grow before anointing him the second coming and putting a **** ton of unnecessary pressure on him.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Kambli's had tbf.
OverratedSanity
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- The test England won in this series, they won after conceding a near 200 run first innings lead. It'd be foolish to imply the toss had any role in their win because whatever advantage the toss gave them for batting first they completely squandered.
- Australia won a test last year after bowling first on a complete minefield of a pitch.
- The last team to win a series here was England in 2012 when they lost the toss and bowled first in both tests they won.
- The statistical evidence clearly points at there being no massive advantage. Post 2000, below are the match results for India winning and losing the toss at home:
Win toss : 33 wins, 7 losses, 14 draws
Lost toss : 35 wins, 8 losses, 15 draws
So yes. Still a myth.
Generally, batting first is an advantage on most Indian pitches because of a relative homogeneity in the surfaces where only a handful of pitches noticeable improve for batting later in the game. It's never given teams a huge advantage that can't be overcome though.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah it does kind of *feel* like batting last is a lot harder than batting third but it doesn't really play out in results a lot. There aren't many Tests in India that make me think "gee they were lucky they won the toss there or the result would be different" at the end.
OverratedSanity
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It's because of the homogeneity as I said. There are pitches in non Asian countries than can either improve for batting or get worse for batting as the test match progresses. While this distribution exists in Asian pitches as well, it definitely skews more towards "bat first is a good idea".
But that just means batting first is a good idea on a broad level in Asia. Doesn't necessarily mean batting first on a bat first pitch in Asia provides more of an advantage in any individual game than batting first on a bat first pitch in SENA.
OverratedSanity
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It definitely seems to be a team directive where mccullum has told them to act like alpha male dick-waving ***** as much as possible and follow some pre-defined set of guidelines for statements to the media which goes something like :
1) If we win with bazball, "Yay, bazball"
2) If we lose a close game, "It didn't feel like we lost, we're saving test cricket etc"
3) If we get thumped and the opposition wins by batting slow, "We were surprised how negative they were. They looked scared of Bazball"
4) If we get thumped and the opposition wins by batting fast, "We were surprised how aggressive they were. Looks like Bazball inspired them"
I guess putting a delusional uber positive spin on everything is part of their identity at this point but no one should act surprised why it's annoying.