Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[kyear2]

I know that. I’m just making fun of someone elses post

But mine actually made sense, yours was just trolling

 

[Nintendo]

Imran, Hadlee, the quartet, Botham, Willis, Underwood, Lillee, Qadir, Thompson.

Who on these lists faced better attacks?

Smith had to face bumrah-ashwin-jadeja plus the other seamer's india have had in that time, dominated broad and peak archer in england in 2019 (not saying these two are as good as any of the guy's you mentioned, FYI, more just they where bowling particularly well then), faced steyn-morkel-abbott-peak philander in SA and dominated them.

Also, viv didn't face the windies pace quartet at test level, and botham was passed it by the time viv actually faced him (Viv played one series against england before botham's back injury in 1980. he averaged 33 for the rest of his career). Qadir took 230 wickets @32, he was a very good spinner, but he's not on the level of the rest of the guys here. Viv averaged 41 against pakistan across his career, and 43 vs new zealand (85 in WI was really impressive, mind you). Viv averaged 44 against AUS in his career, and his best streak of series (two in 84, 88, and 89 where he averaged 47, 58, and 50) lillee didn't play in, and thommo averaged 90.

Once again, i'm not saying viv is "bad", he dominated the england bowlers in particular and did fantastic vs hadlee in 85, but botham wasn't peak botham when he faced him, and some of his work vs lillee and thommo was impressive (79-80 a clear example), but smith has dominated ashwin-jadeja in india, dominated england in england, dominated steyn and peak philander + co in SA and a ton of other stuff. Honestly, I can't help but feeling like viv is a bit overhyped. Averaged 44 vs NZ, 43 vs pakistan, 45 vs AUS. He had moments, but it's not like he was dominating any of the guys you mentioned consistently bar the england guys minus botham.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Smith had to face bumrah-ashwin-jadeja plus the other seamer's india have had in that time, dominated broad and peak archer in england in 2019 (not saying these two are as good as any of the guy's you mentioned, FYI, more just they where bowling particularly well then), faced steyn-morkel-abbott-peak philander in SA and dominated them.

Also, viv didn't face the windies pace quartet at test level, and botham was passed it by the time viv actually faced him (Viv played one series against england before botham's back injury in 1980. he averaged 33 for the rest of his career). Qadir took 230 wickets @32, he was a very good spinner, but he's not on the level of the rest of the guys here. Viv averaged 41 against pakistan across his career, and 43 vs new zealand (85 in WI was really impressive, mind you). Viv averaged 44 against AUS in his career, and his best streak of series (two in 84, 88, and 89 where he averaged 47, 58, and 50) lillee didn't play in, and thommo averaged 90.

Once again, i'm not saying viv is "bad", he dominated the england bowlers in particular and did fantastic vs hadlee in 85, but botham wasn't peak botham when he faced him, and some of his work vs lillee and thommo was impressive (79-80 a clear example), but smith has dominated ashwin-jadeja in india, dominated england in england, dominated steyn and peak philander + co in SA and a ton of other stuff. Honestly, I can't help but feeling like viv is a bit overhyped. Averaged 44 vs NZ, 43 vs pakistan, 45 vs AUS. He had moments, but it's not like he was dominating any of the guys you mentioned consistently bar the england guys minus botham.

I’ll say Viv in 79 dominated Lillee/Thomson/Hogg. Peak Imran in 80 and 87(along with Qadir and a young Akram). Plus the attack in 76 Eng with Underwood, Willis et all was very good as well. Plus he dominated peak quartet(Bedi and Chandra took many wickets) in 75. And Hadlee in 85.

 

[Coronis]

But mine actually made sense, yours was just trolling

Sure, keep telling yourself that.

At least I can understand and accept that people rate players that I don’t so highly.

 

[kyear2]

Smith had to face bumrah-ashwin-jadeja plus the other seamer's india have had in that time, dominated broad and peak archer in england in 2019 (not saying these two are as good as any of the guy's you mentioned, FYI, more just they where bowling particularly well then), faced steyn-morkel-abbott-peak philander in SA and dominated them.

Also, viv didn't face the windies pace quartet at test level, and botham was passed it by the time viv actually faced him (Viv played one series against england before botham's back injury in 1980. he averaged 33 for the rest of his career). Qadir took 230 wickets @32, he was a very good spinner, but he's not on the level of the rest of the guys here. Viv averaged 41 against pakistan across his career, and 43 vs new zealand (85 in WI was really impressive, mind you). Viv averaged 44 against AUS in his career, and his best streak of series (two in 84, 88, and 89 where he averaged 47, 58, and 50) lillee didn't play in, and thommo averaged 90.

Once again, i'm not saying viv is "bad", he dominated the england bowlers in particular and did fantastic vs hadlee in 85, but botham wasn't peak botham when he faced him, and some of his work vs lillee and thommo was impressive (79-80 a clear example), but smith has dominated ashwin-jadeja in india, dominated england in england, dominated steyn and peak philander + co in SA and a ton of other stuff. Honestly, I can't help but feeling like viv is a bit overhyped. Averaged 44 vs NZ, 43 vs pakistan, 45 vs AUS. He had moments, but it's not like he was dominating any of the guys you mentioned consistently bar the england guys minus botham.

First off, I wouldn't take any shots at Smith because I think it's neck and neck for those 2 with Lara for me. But the quality of attacks aren't quite the same, but that's just me.

The thing with Viv is to remember not just to look at the numbers in isolation but to
1. Compare them to what others were averaging
2. Remember the decline at the end. The numbers doesn't show his true impact.

To look at the average vs Pakistan without looking at what Imran and co averaged with the ball in Pakistan is a disservice.

To say he didn't face the best attack of his era and to use that against him falls a bit flat, because no one in the top 10 faced anything close to that mid '80s attack besides Sunny and he was inconsistent at best. He also didn't have any easy tours, no minnows.

 

[kyear2]

Sure, keep telling yourself that.

At least I can understand and accept that people rate players that I don’t so highly.

Yes I do. But it should make sense. I don't think there more than 4 people on the forum who would rate Hammond over those 3.

There's nothing in his record that one can point at to say this dude is a top 5 batsman.
I don't fuss about the 1st team selection because taking into account his utility it's warranted, but to be seen this highly comes across as a protest vote.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Coronis]

Yes I do. But it should make sense. I don't think there more than 4 people on the forum who would rate Hammond over those 3.

There's nothing in his record that one can point at to say this dude is a top 5 batsman.
I don't fuss about the 1st team selection because taking into account his utility it's warranted, but to be seen this highly comes across as a protest vote.

That's just my opinion.

Idk what I (or others) are meant to be protesting but ok.

 

[Nintendo]

First off, I wouldn't take any shots at Smith because I think it's neck and neck for those 2 with Lara for me. But the quality of attacks aren't quite the same, but that's just me.

The thing with Viv is to remember not just to look at the numbers in isolation but to
1. Compare them to what others were averaging
2. Remember the decline at the end. The numbers doesn't show his true impact.

To look at the average vs Pakistan without looking at what Imran and co averaged with the ball in Pakistan is a disservice.

To say he didn't face the best attack of his era and to use that against him falls a bit flat, because no one in the top 10 faced anything close to that mid '80s attack besides Sunny and he was inconsistent at best. He also didn't have any easy tours, no minnows.

Across the length of Viv's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people averaged over 50, viv is 6th on that list. Across smith's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people have averaged over 50, smith is #2 on that list (sangakarra casually averaging 61 lol).

Viv:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Smith:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting.

Smith played 10 test's as a bowling allrounder and missed 2-3 years of his peak due to covid and the sandpaper ban. Batting in viv's era was hard, but it's also been pretty hard post 2016.

FYI, I don't disagree with what your saying, i've just never understood why viv was so glazed on here, aside from the whole "he smashed lillee and thommo without a helmet" angle. He's a fantastic player, but I just don't see how you can rate him as best since bradman territory. Maybe that's just because I didn't watch him play, IDK.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Across the length of Viv's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people averaged over 50, viv is 6th on that list. Across smith's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people have averaged over 50, smith is #2 on that list (sangakarra casually averaging 61 lol).

Viv:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Smith:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting.

Smith played 10 test's as a bowling allrounder and missed 2-3 years of his peak due to covid and the sandpaper ban. Batting in viv's era was hard, but it's also been pretty hard post 2016.

FYI, I don't disagree with what your saying, i've just never understood why viv was so glazed on here, aside from the whole "he smashed lillee and thommo without a helmet" angle. He's a fantastic player, but I just don't see how you can rate him as best since bradman territory. Maybe that's just because I didn't watch him play, IDK.

Viv has the best short term peak bar Bradman. He didn’t do any minnow bashing, otherwise he’d average the same as Lara. He has a good record across all conditions(which Smith also does, while Lara doesn’t), great record across all four innings. And he had atleast one great series vs the ATG bowlers of his period and favourable records against all

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And none of the players listed as averaging more than Viv have as complete a record as him(Miandad was a HTB, Gavaskar inflated record vs WSC weakened Aus to an extent)

 

[capt_Luffy]

And none of the players listed as averaging more than Viv have as complete a record as him(Miandad was a HTB, Gavaskar inflated record vs WSC weakened Aus to an extent)

Gavaskar did scored some runs against a WSC weakened Australia; but that does include 2 centuries in Pert and Adelaide against prime Thomson..... Honestly, Viv also haven't played extensively against an Australian attack with Lillee, and in those matches; Lloyd and Kalicharan both played similarly well. Also, I think Gavaskar's record vs Pakistan is kinda underrated.

 

[Calm_profit]

Gavaskar did scored some runs against a WSC weakened Australia; but that does include 2 centuries in Pert and Adelaide against prime Thomson..... Honestly, Viv also haven't played extensively against an Australian attack with Lillee, and in those matches; Lloyd and Kalicharan both played similarly well. Also, I think Gavaskar's record vs Pakistan is kinda underrated.

Yeah,Also Gavaskar scored 221 in England against the attack of prime Botham and Willis

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah,Also Gavaskar scored 221 in England against the attack of prime Botham and Willis

And that too on a 4th innings run chase....

 

[Coronis]

Viv has the best short term peak bar Bradman. He didn’t do any minnow bashing, otherwise he’d average the same as Lara. He has a good record across all conditions(which Smith also does, while Lara doesn’t), great record across all four innings. And he had atleast one great series vs the ATG bowlers of his period and favourable records against all

Finally we’re looking at meaningful stats.

 

[kyear2]

Across the length of Viv's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people averaged over 50, viv is 6th on that list. Across smith's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people have averaged over 50, smith is #2 on that list (sangakarra casually averaging 61 lol).

Viv:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Smith:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting.

Smith played 10 test's as a bowling allrounder and missed 2-3 years of his peak due to covid and the sandpaper ban. Batting in viv's era was hard, but it's also been pretty hard post 2016.

FYI, I don't disagree with what your saying, i've just never understood why viv was so glazed on here, aside from the whole "he smashed lillee and thommo without a helmet" angle. He's a fantastic player, but I just don't see how you can rate him as best since bradman territory. Maybe that's just because I didn't watch him play, IDK.

Probably due to the last bit, but we're all allowed our opinions.

Just out of curiosity, how would you rate these gentlemen and where would you place Sir Viv overall?

 

[kyear2]

Gavaskar did scored some runs against a WSC weakened Australia; but that does include 2 centuries in Pert and Adelaide against prime Thomson..... Honestly, Viv also haven't played extensively against an Australian attack with Lillee, and in those matches; Lloyd and Kalicharan both played similarly well. Also, I think Gavaskar's record vs Pakistan is kinda underrated.

No one is saying Sunny wasn't great. He's in the top 10.

 

[kyear2]

Across the length of Viv's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people averaged over 50, viv is 6th on that list. Across smith's career, min 3000 runs, 6 people have averaged over 50, smith is #2 on that list (sangakarra casually averaging 61 lol).

Viv:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Smith:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting.

Smith played 10 test's as a bowling allrounder and missed 2-3 years of his peak due to covid and the sandpaper ban. Batting in viv's era was hard, but it's also been pretty hard post 2016.

FYI, I don't disagree with what your saying, i've just never understood why viv was so glazed on here, aside from the whole "he smashed lillee and thommo without a helmet" angle. He's a fantastic player, but I just don't see how you can rate him as best since bradman territory. Maybe that's just because I didn't watch him play, IDK.

Richards also lost a bit of his peak to WSC, where he was on only 3 batsmen who passed that test.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Gavaskar did scored some runs against a WSC weakened Australia; but that does include 2 centuries in Pert and Adelaide against prime Thomson..... Honestly, Viv also haven't played extensively against an Australian attack with Lillee, and in those matches; Lloyd and Kalicharan both played similarly well. Also, I think Gavaskar's record vs Pakistan is kinda underrated.

Viv in 1975/76, 79/80 and 81 played against peak Lillee. In the WSC and well(where he averaged 50 + against Lillee). And agreed Gavaskar is a top 10 batsmen of all time. Just that his record is not as complete as Viv(the Australia part).

 

[Coronis]

Richards also lost a bit of his peak to WSC, where he was on only 3 batsmen who passed that test.

Are you seriously comparing those two?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

WG Grace - Arguably greatest batsman of Alltime ( not considered )

Bradman

Sunil Gavaskar
Gary Sobers
Sachin tendulkar
Brian Lara
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Len Hutton
Jack Hobbs
George Headley
Wally Hammond
Steve Smith
Ranjit Singhji
Victor Trumper
Barry Richards