Ashwin vs Lyon, who is better on flat pitches?

[capt_Luffy]

I don't consider those performances by Ashwin you keep bringing up in Australia to meet a threshold of being matchwinning. They were impressive spells but essentially still in a supportive than decisive role. Those same games you had Bumrah, Siraj, Shami and others sharing in roughly the same wickets. He never stood tall above the other in a innings in that way when his key role as spinner was involved.

Australia has never delivered a matchwinning performance in SENA.

Which performances of Lyon are you talking about exactly in England, as I can't think of any barring that Birmingham match, and I won't consider Lyon the match winner their. He bowled really well in the second innings, but the match was over the moment Australia set a target of 398, not to mention Cummins also took 4 wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

Which performances of Lyon are you talking about exactly in England, as I can't think of any barring that Birmingham match, and I won't consider Lyon the match winner their. He bowled really well in the second innings, but the match was over the moment Australia set a target of 398, not to mention Cummins also took 4 wickets.

Of course that Birmingham game counts. Matchwinning means either setting up or sealing a victory with a decisive bowling effort. He also, to a lesser extent, took eight wickets in the 1st 2023 Ashes test win.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Of course that Birmingham game counts. Matchwinning means either setting up or sealing a victory with a decisive bowling effort. He also took eight wickets in the 1st 2023 Ashes test win.

By your definition of ''Matchwinning" I assumed it was some extra ordinary performance.... Both of those weren't. Both of these Birmingham games he bowled brilliant, but if these games counts then so do Ashwin's in Australia. And also, among the matches they played together in Australia, Ashwin took 7 more wickets at a lower average.

 

[subshakerz]

By your definition of ''Matchwinning" I assumed it was some extra ordinary performance.... Both of those weren't. Both of these Birmingham games he bowled brilliant, but if these games counts then so do Ashwin's in Australia. And also, among the matches they played together in Australia, Ashwin took 7 more wickets at a lower average.

Take a 6fer in the last innings to seal a game is a matchwinning effort for any bowler by definition, yeah. Even if the game is setup, a bowler who stands up to take the lions share is winning you the game.

You may think it's a low bar but it's more than Ashwin has been able to accomplish in SENA, including the 3fers you want to pass as if they are something extraordinary. Ashwin never stood out to win a game.

 

[Anil]

As always, the answer is Jadeja!

 

[Daemon]

Take a 6fer in the last innings to seal a game is a matchwinning effort for any bowler by definition, yeah. Even if the game is setup, a bowler who stands up to take the lions share is winning you the game.

You may think it's a low bar but it's more than Ashwin has been able to accomplish in SENA, including the 3fers you want to pass as if they are something extraordinary. Ashwin never stood out to win a game.

I think it's Lyon ligma perhaps?

 

[Gob]

Lyon is comfortably ahead outside the SC for me and you'd have to say wickets are significantly less helpful for the spinners out side the SC although they may not be necessarily flat

 

[capt_Luffy]

Take a 6fer in the last innings to seal a game is a matchwinning effort for any bowler by definition, yeah. Even if the game is setup, a bowler who stands up to take the lions share is winning you the game.

You may think it's a low bar but it's more than Ashwin has been able to accomplish in SENA, including the 3fers you want to pass as if they are something extraordinary. Ashwin never stood out to win a game.

You want to pass any match in which Lyon was the highest wicket taker as match winning; but are completely ignoring that Ashwin was also so in Adelaide? So taking a 4-fer is enough, but not a 3-fer in both innings?? You are constantly shifting the goal post and changing the criteria as they suit you..... Those 3-fers were match changing, that 6-fer wasn't. It's now sounding like Kemar Roach was better than Joel Garner because he had a 10-fer and Garner didn't.

 

[Bolo.]

If player A takes 10/100 and player B takes 10/150 in the same won match, are you happy saying player A has a matchwinning performance, and B did not?

They won the match together, even if one outperformed the other.

 

[subshakerz]

If player A takes 10/100 and player B takes 10/150 in the same won match, are you happy saying player A has a matchwinning performance, and B did not?

They won the match together, even if one outperformed the other.

No they both crossed a threshold for matchwinning.

But I don't normally count a 3fer as a matchwinning performance, no, if the rest of the lineup are taking around the same wickets too. If you do, fine.

 

[subshakerz]

You want to pass any match in which Lyon was the highest wicket taker as match winning; but are completely ignoring that Ashwin was also so in Adelaide? So taking a 4-fer is enough, but not a 3-fer in both innings?? You are constantly shifting the goal post and changing the criteria as they suit you..... Those 3-fers were match changing, that 6-fer wasn't. It's now sounding like Kemar Roach was better than Joel Garner because he had a 10-fer and Garner didn't.

You don't seem to get an elementary point. Matchwinning for a bowler doesn't have to be just to set up a win. You also have to put in the long overs to seal a victory even if your team has an advantage.

And yes, you should cross a threshold in terms of wickets you take. Small hauls to me aren't really the definition of matchwinning. It doesn't have to be a tenfer.

The fact that you have to search around and can only find a supporting 3fer here or there, where he wasn't even the best bowler of his side, from Ashwin to try and fit it here says it all. Just admit the guy has a handicap overseas that limits his wicket-taking ability.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

What would Ashwin average if he played for Australia?

 

[howitzer]

What would Ashwin average if he played for Australia?

30.73

 

[subshakerz]

What would Ashwin average if he played for Australia?

If you switch home countries, Lyon ends up with a below 25 average, Ashwin mid-30s.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Ashwin’s bowling v Root’s batting might be a good comparison. Ashwins probably the better match winner though.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Lyon averages 30 in Australia while bowling his entire home career on the least supportive pitches for offspinners in the world likely and consistently winning games, while Ashwin averages over 40 yet you give him a pass because of a 3-fer in 2021.

Really? Because Australia lose plenty of games

 

[subshakerz]

Really? Because Australia lose plenty of games

Relatively.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Relatively.

Relative to what?

 

[Spark]

Lyon averaging "just over 30" in Australia is far more impressive than averaging 25 on recent Indian decks.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You don't seem to get an elementary point. Matchwinning for a bowler doesn't have to be just to set up a win. You also have to put in the long overs to seal a victory even if your team has an advantage.

And yes, you should cross a threshold in terms of wickets you take. Small hauls to me aren't really the definition of matchwinning. It doesn't have to be a tenfer.

The fact that you have to search around and can only find a supporting 3fer here or there, where he wasn't even the best bowler of his side, from Ashwin to try and fit it here says it all. Just admit the guy has a handicap overseas that limits his wicket-taking ability.

In that Adelaide Test he bowled wonderfully, not to mention the previous Adelaide Test (which India lost); and in both those he was India's best bowler. You're changing the threshold as you seem fit. A 3-fer in a challenging condition is as important, if not more, than than a 6-fer in an already won match.