Ashwin vs Lyon, who is better on flat pitches?

[PlayerComparisons]

Who would you pick on a flat pitch?

 

[subshakerz]

Lyon and it's not close.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Lyon and it's not close.

Who do you rate as better overall? Both have a similar number of wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

Who do you rate as better overall? Both have a similar number of wickets.

Lyon. I know there will be howls of protests on this, but Lyon is a wicket-taking option everywhere. Lyon has won games for his side in virtually every country except maybe SA.

Ashwin is better in spinning conditions but that's about it. Lyon has the least favorable home conditions, Ashwin the most, and that accounts for their difference in record.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Who do you rate as better overall? Both have a similar number of wickets.

Ashwin, by a mile. He has match winning performances in Australia, and has a better average in England. The only place Lyon is better is in SA, but not by much as he's also thrash there; and in his home in Australia, but again; averages there over 30 too.... Even in spinning tracks in India he averages 27; not too mention how much he got thrashed in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.... Yeah, in a flat track you have an argument for Lyon due to sample size, but overall, it's not close, it's not the home conditions dictating their records, Lyon isn't special in anywhere.

 

[subshakerz]

Ashwin, by a mile. He has match winning performances in Australia, and has a better average in England. The only place Lyon is better is in SA, but not by much as he's also thrash there; and in his home in Australia, but again; averages there over 30 too.... Even in spinning tracks in India he averages 27; not too mention how much he got thrashed in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.... Yeah, in a flat track you have an argument for Lyon due to sample size, but overall, it's not close, it's not the home conditions dictating their records, Lyon isn't special in anywhere.

You really have to start going beyond just blindly reading averages.

Ashwin with 18 wickets in 7 games is better than Lyon in England? Really, with what impact? Lyon nearly wins Australia a game an Ashes there while taking nearly 4 wickets a test.

Lyon averages 30 in Australia while bowling his entire home career on the least supportive pitches for offspinners in the world likely and consistently winning games, while Ashwin averages over 40 yet you give him a pass because of a 3-fer in 2021.

Is Ashwin better in SC? Yes, but Lyon has still won games in all three countries. Yet Ashwin is a deadbeat in SENA.

Lyon is a wicket-taking option everywhere.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You really have to start going beyond just blindly reading averages.

Ashwin with 18 wickets in 7 games is better than Lyon in England? Really, with what impact? Lyon nearly wins Australia a game an Ashes there while taking nearly 4 wickets a test.

Lyon averages 30 in Australia while bowling his entire home career on the least supportive pitches for offspinners in the world likely and consistently winning games, while Ashwin averages over 40 yet you give him a pass because of a 3-fer in 2021.

Is Ashwin better in SC? Yes, but Lyon has still won games in all three countries. Yet Ashwin is a deadbeat in SENA.

Lyon is a wicket-taking option everywhere.

Lyon is dead beat in SC anywhere but Asia to a much bigger extent than anywhere but India. He averaged 53 in UAE, 44 in Pakistan and 32 in SL. In England, their WPI are 1.63 and 1.96; not really a huge difference imo, Lyon had higher highs and lower lows, Ashwin was given a supporting role, and he prevailed in that. In Australia, his home, he averages 37 vs India and 30 overall; and in SA both are enough bad to not give Lyon any huge points.

 

[morgieb]

Definitely Lyon for mine, although it's more debatable when the wicket is slow. Though I think the gap between them on friendly wickets is vastly greater.

 

[subshakerz]

Lyon is dead beat in SC anywhere but Asia to a much bigger extent than anywhere but India. He averaged 53 in UAE, 44 in Pakistan and 32 in SL. In England, their WPI are 1.63 and 1.96; not really a huge difference imo, Lyon had higher highs and lower lows, Ashwin was given a supporting role, and he prevailed in that. In Australia, his home, he averages 37 vs India and 30 overall; and in SA both are enough bad to not give Lyon any huge points.

Lyon is objectively very good in India. And he has won games in Pak and SL that have won series. Ashwin is better in SC tho, no worries. but Lyon is by no means a support bowler, he still takes a high volume of wickets even if he is expensive.

Ashwin doesn't have highs really in SENA thats the problem. He is not going to threaten to run through a lineup. Lyon actually wins games there.

So you have Ashwin, ATG in SC and support bowler in SENA, vs Lyon, who is a solid/good frontline spinner/wicket-taker everywhere. Lyon is better.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lyon is objectively very good in India. And he has won games in Pak and SL that have won series. Ashwin is better in SC tho, no worries. but Lyon is by no means a support bowler, he still takes a high volume of wickets even if he is expensive.

Ashwin doesn't have highs really in SENA thats the problem. Lyon actually wins games there.

So you have Ashwin, ATG in SC and support bowler in SENA, vs Lyon, who is a solid/good frontline spinner/wicket-taker everywhere. Lyon is better.

I think here we can disagree..... You value the ability to win games, even if the bowler is expensive (no seriously, Lyon is too expensive in Pak and UAE, considering they're in SC); I value a more balanced bowler who can be cheap and play a good support everywhere, not to mention is almost GOAT at home (not to mention, Ashwin had played a very vital role in winning games in 2 separate Australia tours). Okay then, let's agree to disagree.

 

[subshakerz]

I think here we can disagree..... You value the ability to win games, even if the bowler is expensive (no seriously, Lyon is too expensive in Pak and UAE, considering they're in SC); I value a more balanced bowler who can be cheap and play a good support everywhere, not to mention is almost GOAT at home (not to mention, Ashwin had played a very vital role in winning games in 2 separate Australia tours). Okay then, let's agree to disagree.

Sure we can disagree but its hard for me to understand how you can rate being a cheaper support bowler over a more expensive occasional match--winner when it comes to a frontline bowler in a huge section of the cricket world.

But we have honed in at the heart of our difference. And I think this applies to Ashwin, Jadeja and Sehwag I have debated before, because I feel certain posters over-value their home performances in rating these cricketers.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sure we can disagree but its hard for me to understand how you can rate being a cheaper support bowler over a more expensive occasional match--winner when it comes to a frontline bowler in a huge section of the cricket world.

But we have honed in at the heart of our difference. And I think this applies to Ashwin, Jadeja and Sehwag I have debated before, because I feel certain posters over-value their home performances in rating these cricketers.

In SENA, both are huge flops in SA, and performed in my books almost equally in England. You might say Lyon is better there due to his some particular match performances, but I think if even so, not really by much. Ashwin plays the support role there and he has been perfectly fine; not to mention Lyon is also not the lead bowler their. He just has played many more matches in England than Ashwin. In Australia, ofcourse Lyon is better but it's neither like he's the lead bowler their nor is it that Ashwin didn't won matches. So yeah, I think I will gave the edge to Lyon in SENA, but not by much; and while his performance in India is really good, his performance in Sri Lanka and especially Pakistan (counting UAE) are too underwhelming to me to really make a case for him.

 

[Victor Ian]

I think here we can disagree..... You value the ability to win games, even if the bowler is expensive (no seriously, Lyon is too expensive in Pak and UAE, considering they're in SC);

I don't get this. I'd take a bowler with a bradmanesque average who would win me games every day of the week. When you win, average is irrelevant.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't get this. I'd take a bowler with a bradmanesque average who would win me games every day of the week. When you win, average is irrelevant.

If you win.... Would you take Narendra Hirwani or Bob Massie because they might get you to win a match over say Rangana Herath or Ashwin? It's all about consistency.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't get this. I'd take a bowler with a bradmanesque average who would win me games every day of the week. When you win, average is irrelevant.

Precisely my point. Frontline bowlers are meant to win matches.

 

[subshakerz]

If you win.... Would you take Narendra Hirwani or Bob Massie because they might get you to win a match over say Rangana Herath or Ashwin? It's all about consistency.

Precisely why you should select the bowler who wins you games consistently across conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

In SENA, both are huge flops in SA, and performed in my books almost equally in England. You might say Lyon is better there due to his some particular match performances, but I think if even so, not really by much. Ashwin plays the support role there and he has been perfectly fine; not to mention Lyon is also not the lead bowler their. He just has played many more matches in England than Ashwin. In Australia, ofcourse Lyon is better but it's neither like he's the lead bowler their nor is it that Ashwin didn't won matches. So yeah, I think I will gave the edge to Lyon in SENA, but not by much; and while his performance in India is really good, his performance in Sri Lanka and especially Pakistan (counting UAE) are too underwhelming to me to really make a case for him.

Yeah let's disagree. You overvalue neat stats in friendly conditions over match performances way too much for me to debate frankly.

To me, a spinner expensive but still consistently matchwinning in the SC but also consistently matchwinning in SENA is far more valuable than a spinner who is not winning me games in SENA consistently if at all regardless of how good they are in the SC

 

[honestbharani]

Ashwin easily.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah let's disagree. You overvalue neat stats in friendly conditions over match performances way too much for me to debate frankly.

To me, a spinner expensive but still consistently matchwinning in the SC but also consistently matchwinning in SENA is far more valuable than a spinner who is not winning me games in SENA consistently if at all regardless of how good they are in the SC

If you don't want to debate anymore then that's totally fine, but as I previously said; Ashwin has won matches in Australia and Lyon isn't better enough in Australia and England for me to overwrite his SC record. Let's end this debate then, as you selectively look at performances that only suits your point.

 

[subshakerz]

If you don't want to debate anymore then that's totally fine, but as I previously said; Ashwin has won matches in Australia and Lyon isn't better enough in Australia and England for me to overwrite his SC record. Let's end this debate then, as you selectively look at performances that only suits your point.

I don't consider those performances by Ashwin you keep bringing up in Australia to meet a threshold of being matchwinning. They were impressive spells but essentially still in a supportive than decisive role. Those same games you had Bumrah, Siraj, Shami and others sharing in roughly the same wickets. He never stood tall above the other in a innings in that way when his key role as spinner was involved.

Australia has never delivered a matchwinning performance in SENA.