Dennis Lillee vs Allan Donald

[Slifer]

I'm not sure I accept that logic since he was awesome at home on this metric.

Yeah but he was also awesome away:

Home
177wkts at 22 wpm 4.65 sr 45

Away
153 wkts at 23 wpm 4.5 sr 49.

Comparatively speaking, Lillee only has a slightly higher wpm away than Donald of 4.75. But that's with far fewer tests in more varied conditions and no tests at all away to the best team of his time. Like the Ambrose debate, you're comparing a player who hardly played away in as many conditions (lillee) vs one that did and has an objectively better record away. Next....

 

[Bolo.]

McGrath didn't fail against SA. He played them in six full series, did well in three and poor in three. Overall, he was okay IMO. But I've never argued his record is without blemishes. However, I do consider India his toughest opponent though.

Mcgrath Average 27 SR 72 1.78 WPI
Donald Average 31 SR 62 2.2 WPI

Donald is better without even factoring in that Aus were a stronger batting team, or how unlucky he was with the timing.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Mcgrath Average 27 SR 72 1.78 WPI
Donald Average 31 SR 62 2.2 WPI

Donald is better without even factoring in that Aus were a stronger batting team, or how unlucky he was with the timing.

Iirc, if you look at their numbers in games they both played, Donald's are quite good and are skewed by his last series.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Dang McGrath is so overrated

 

[Slifer]

Dang McGrath is so overrated

He's isn't, Donald imo is underrated. Hardly gets talked up on the same rung as the Ambrose's etc but imo, he's right up there.

 

[subshakerz]

He's isn't, Donald imo is underrated. Hardly gets talked up on the same rung as the Ambrose's etc but imo, he's right up there.

No, Donald is just the latest guy on CW that's stats addicts are overrating because they don't have the context of his actual career.

 

[subshakerz]

Mcgrath Average 27 SR 72 1.78 WPI
Donald Average 31 SR 62 2.2 WPI

Donald is better without even factoring in that Aus were a stronger batting team, or how unlucky he was with the timing.

I don't see how Donald is better if he is 4 points behind. And McGrath has multiple series where he came good against SA home and away, unlike Donald.

 

[Slifer]

No, Donald is just the latest guy on CW that's stats addicts are overrating because they don't have the context of his actual career.

Pardon me but when we compare players the first place we begin has to be with the stats, otherwise you may as well pick someone like Mitchell Johnson who who had "impactful " series over someone like Alan Davidson.

And it's not just the stats, apart from Waqar (and maybe Shoaib) Donald was probably the most exciting fast bowler I've seen in my time of watching cricket. You say we overrate him because of stats, I say stats are the most accurate reflection of a player's ability. Not the only one but the most accurate.

 

[Burgey]

Sorry to say, if Australians didn't rate you, you were rated lesser overall.

It has always been thus, and always will be. As it should. Australia is the gold standard for cricket. Nowhere else matters.

 

[Jumno]

Donald was a beast at home, as was Lillee. My critique was that Donald's flashy away averages that everyone here is impressed by don't actually reflect impactful performances.

Bowling SR isn't a big deal for me unless it's unusually high and comes with a low WPM.

I will concede Lillee wasnt as awesome as other ATGs vs the best but overall was pretty good. Donald really needed at least one more impressive series vs Australia IMO.


ODIs are irrelevant. As are home performances in my particular critique. I will give you the 94 England game tho nobody has ever heard or mentioned that performance.

World cup semi final and that too against Australia.

 

[Bolo.]

I don't see how Donald is better if he is 4 points behind. And McGrath has multiple series where he came good against SA home and away, unlike Donald.

You tell me. You were arguing that a 4 point average difference is less meaningful than the additional wickets when debating away performances for Imran and Ambrose.

They are pretty close on numbers. But Donald head by a decent margin due to opposition strength and the two last series thing.

 

[shortpitched713]

No, Donald is just the latest guy on CW that's stats addicts are overrating because they don't have the context of his actual career.

Give me a guy not named Imran, Garner, or from the big 5 pacers who you could possibly make a case as being better than Donald? ( I think Donald is roughly co-equal with those 2.)

No such pace bowler exists in the relatively modern era.

 

[Jumno]

I say it again as a big fan of McGrath, Imran, Wasim. I put McGrath number two/three of all time great pacers.

I wanted to bowl like Donald and we were scared of the white lightening. The white cream around his eyes, the menacing look, the aura, the frightening pace, the smiling salute celebration.

England fans wanted to be like Donald as I remember in school.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Give me a guy not named Imran, Garner, or from the big 5 pacers who you could possibly make a case as being better than Donald? ( I think Donald is roughly co-equal with those 2.)

No such pace bowler exists in the relatively modern era.

Cummins tbh

 

[Slifer]

Cummins tbh

Possibly in the future but as of now no. Career isn't complete and quite frankly he needs to correct his record outside Australia.

 

[Slifer]

"Ambrose has little returns to show in Pak, NZ, SL and SA. Never played in India. His entire career is based on friendly away pitches in Australia, England." We could reasonably replace Lillee with the above statement and replace Australia with Eng and NZ. Then replace the 4 test countries for Curtly, with the others of Lillee's time. ..

The quotes is what Subs wrote in another debate , when I posed to him the question above here was his response:

"Again, we were putting Ambrose against someone who also succeeded against the best batting lineup of his time. Not Donald. Why is this so hard to understand?"

He never gave credit to Ambrose for success vs the best team and made a point of Ambrose's away record being mostly based on "friendly" wkts in Eng and Oz. Now we have Lillee who played even less away and mostly on "friendly" wkts in Eng/Nz but Donald gets marked down because he didn't set the world alight vs Oz.....smh

 

[Slifer]

You tell me. You were arguing that a 4 point average difference is less meaningful than the additional wickets when debating away performances for Imran and Ambrose.

They are pretty close on numbers. But Donald head by a decent margin due to opposition strength and the two last series thing.

He literally was but for whatever reason he has convenient amnesia...

 

[OverratedSanity]

"Ambrose has little returns to show in Pak, NZ, SL and SA. Never played in India. His entire career is based on friendly away pitches in Australia, England." We could reasonably replace Lillee with the above statement and replace Australia with Eng and NZ. Then replace the 4 test countries for Curtly, with the others of Lillee's time. ..

Kinda the point though isn't it? The thing about Lillee you said is always pointed out as a valid criticism and acknowledged on CW. But not for ambrose.

 

[Slifer]

Kinda the point though isn't it? The thing about Lillee you said is always pointed out as a valid criticism and acknowledged on CW. But not for ambrose.

It isn't for Ambrose because Ambrose played decidedly more tests than lillee away. And Ambrose actually played the best team of his time away, where lillee did not. Apples and oranges afaic.

 

[BazBall21]

I think Ambrose's first tour of Pakistan is rightly or wrongly seen as a difference maker against Lillee.