Dennis Lillee vs Allan Donald

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Lillee’s better because even tho both have a serious lack of dominating performances away from home apart from Eng(Donald doesn’t have a fifer way from home except Eng and a single one in Aus), I feel Lillee was more destructive overall, his WPM is insane(even when Donald was bowling without Pollock or when Pollock hadn’t reached greatness, his WPM wasn’t as good as Lillee’s, and even Lillee had to bowl with peak Thomson). Also Lillee maintained his record in Eng for longer. Feel Lillee is seriously underrated here now. And sometimes people looking at Lillee’s record act as if Aus and Eng(the two countries is which he outright dominated) have similar conditions when it’s not. Plus he has a decent record in NZ too(Note: not taking Donald’s performance in Ind cause of the 5 test limit).

 

[Slifer]

Lillee’s better because even tho both have a serious lack of dominating performances away from home apart from Eng(Donald doesn’t have a fifer way from home except Eng and a single one in Aus), I feel Lillee was more destructive overall, his WPM is insane(even when Donald was bowling without Pollock or when Pollock hadn’t reached greatness, his WPM wasn’t as good as Lillee’s, and even Lillee had to bowl with peak Thomson). Also Lillee maintained his record in Eng for longer. Feel Lillee is seriously underrated here now. And sometimes people looking at Lillee’s record act as if Aus and Eng(the two countries is which he outright dominated) have similar conditions when it’s not. Plus he has a decent record in NZ too(Note: not taking Donald’s performance in Ind cause of the 5 test limit).

...ok

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Lillee probably. Peer rating isn’t something to totally go on but in this particular comparison I think they are close enough to make it as a separating factor. No quick in history has Lillee beat based on reputation despite there imho being few better.

 

[Slifer]

Excuse me all but Donald has a better average and sr. Donald played just about enough in the SC. Donald has a middling record vs the best team of his time and actually did ok away down under. Against the other challenging batting line up of his time, Donald was outstanding.

Lillee by contrast played 60 of 70 tests in either England or Australia. And never played the best team of his time in their own backyard, yet has an objectively inferior record to Allan.

In several other threads, I've seen 'others' criticize a certain lanky bowler for not playing enough in certain continents that rhyme with Asia. Curious to know why this doesn't apply here. Fwiw, I think Allan is severely underrated. No bowler in my time of watching cricket made Lara as uncomfortable as white lightning.

 

[subshakerz]

Donald was much more explosive than Kallis and their batting wasn't great in the 90s which isn't his fault (as you know). I agree Lillee is a bit better.

Explosiveness is not the issue. The issue is his portfolio. Donald's best away series was England 98 but even then he failed to bowl out England in two critical tests to lose the series.

Pollock actually was the one who had series winning performances of note in Pakistan, India and NZ during his peak the same time.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Excuse me all but Donald has a better average and sr. Donald played just about enough in the SC. Donald has a middling record vs the best team of his time and actually did ok away down under. Against the other challenging batting line up of his time, Donald was outstanding.

Lillee by contrast played 60 of 70 tests in either England or Australia. And never played the best team of his time in their own backyard, yet has an objectively inferior record to Allan.

In several other threads, I've seen 'others' criticize a certain lanky bowler for not playing enough in certain continents that rhyme with Asia. Curious to know why this doesn't apply here. Fwiw, I think Allan is severely underrated. No bowler in my time of watching cricket made Lara as uncomfortable as white lightning.

Donald played less than 4 tests in Ind, 2 in Pak, 3 in SL. I thought that we were observing a 5 test limit for the countries. The only proper brilliant away record Donald has in Eng, and Donald was good in WI. Lillee did very well vs WI in Aus. And Aus and Eng, provided different conditions, both of which Lillee mastered(bouncy as well as swinging conditions).

 

[subshakerz]

In several other threads, I've seen 'others' criticize a certain lanky bowler for not playing enough in certain continents that rhyme with Asia. Curious to know why this doesn't apply here. Fwiw, I think Allan is severely underrated. No bowler in my time of watching cricket made Lara as uncomfortable as white lightning.

That lanky bowler was considered the best pacer of his era along with Wasim. Donald doesn't have that rep.

Donald's Asia record looks nice but can anyone remember his actual impact?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And Lillee objectively has a better WPM. Donald has a better average cause of better support than Lillee, who often was a lone force and overbowled

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Yea pretty averages mean nothing if there’s no impact

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

That lanky bowler was considered the best pacer of his era along with Wasim. Donald doesn't have that rep.

Donald's Asia record looks nice but can anyone remember his actual impact?

Not even one fifer

 

[Bolo.]

Lillee probably. Peer rating isn’t something to totally go on but in this particular comparison I think they are close enough to make it as a separating factor. No quick in history has Lillee beat based on reputation despite there imho being few better.

What you are describing is mostly an accident of timing. There hadn't been an ATG for some time before or after Lillee's debut, and the ones who should have been were banned.

Plenty of ATGs from the 80s. And ATGs that debuted a few years earlier. These guys got rated higher earlier in their careers, and the reputation carried. Donald (and Mcgrath) were clearly the best bowlers from the mid 90s on, but they didn't gather the rep at the time (or in Mcgraths case until everyone else retired) because they were competing with guys who had already established ATG reps before they started/when they were just finding their feet.

 

[subshakerz]

What you are describing is mostly an accident of timing. There hadn't been an ATG for some time before or after Lillee's debut, and the ones who should have been were banned.

Plenty of ATGs from the 80s. And ATGs that debuted a few years earlier. These guys got rated higher earlier in their careers, and the reputation carried. Donald (and Mcgrath) were clearly the best bowlers from the mid 90s on, but they didn't gather the rep at the time (or in Mcgraths case until everyone else retired) because they were competing with guys who had already established ATG reps before they started/when they were just finding their feet.

I agree with this about Lillee but I still think all said and done, Donald didn't have the rep by his retirement because Ambrose, McGrath and Wasim were objectively considered better bowlers by pundits and players, and Donald didn't really have the peak performance against the best team of his time compared to the others.

Sorry to say, if Australians didn't rate you, you were rated lesser overall.

 

[Slifer]

Not even one fifer

Donald has as many fifers in Asia as Glenn McGrath ie one. You lot were giving other bowlers crap for their sr but here we have Donald with both a better average and sr and an excellent wpm of 4.6 considering he bowled with the likes DeVilliers and Pollock and he played more extensively overseas....smh. You guys seriously pick and choose when you want to rate certain aspects of a bowler's cv higher......

 

[subshakerz]

Donald has as many fifers in Asia as Glenn McGrath ie one. You lot were giving other bowlers crap for their sr but here we have Donald with both a better average and sr and an excellent wpm of 4.6 considering he bowled with the likes DeVilliers and Pollock and he played more extensively overseas....smh. You guys seriously pick and choose when you want to rate certain aspects of a bowler's cv higher......

Actually, Kyear2 mentioned the criteria that 5 tests in a country are considered acceptable to judge. We agreed with that for the most part (exception for me would be some absolutely brilliant small series performance worth considering)

Meaning Donald has no Asia performance to judge upon.

He has a good series in WI, good record in England and moderate record in Australia to speak of.

Compared to Lillee in Eng and NZ.

 

[Slifer]

That lanky bowler was considered the best pacer of his era along with Wasim. Donald doesn't have that rep.

Donald's Asia record looks nice but can anyone remember his actual impact?

9 tests, 36 wkts an average a little over 20 and a sr of 48.5. That's good enough for me. The above is better average wise, sr and wpm than McGrath and they both took one five for in Asia. Granted McGrath played twice the tests. But if Donald had no impact on Asia, neither did Glenn.

 

[Slifer]

Actually, Kyear2 mentioned the criteria that 5 tests in a country are considered acceptable to judge. We agreed with that for the most part.

Meaning Donald has no Asia performance to judge upon.

He has a good series in WI, good record in England and moderate record in Australia to speak of.

Compared to Lillee in Eng and NZ.

He played 9 tests overall in Asia, that's sufficient afaic.

 

[subshakerz]

9 tests, 36 wkts an average a little over 20 and a sr of 48.5. That's good enough for me. The above is better average wise, sr and wpm than McGrath and they both took one five for in Asia. Granted McGrath played twice the tests. But if Donald had no impact on Asia, neither did Glenn.

McGrath had a lot more impact in India than Donald did in all of Asia.

However, I will concede that Donald's overall Asia record is a minor point in his favor vs Lillee with no real record if we relax the 5 tests in a country rule.

 

[Slifer]

Zero fivers and both comparable wpm ~4 and Donald with the much superior sr. Plus Asia does not equal India. There are two other countries they both played in. Granted Donald less. Next argument....

 

[subshakerz]

Zero fivers and both comparable wpm ~4 and Donald with the much superior sr. Plus Asia does not equal India. There are two other countries they both played in. Granted Donald less. Next argument....

No I will admit Lillee vs Donald is close because Lillee may have inflated rep and was less tested.

 

[Slifer]

No I will admit Lillee vs Donald is close because Lillee may have inflated rep and was less tested.

Here's how highly i rate Donald, if you said he was up there with Sir Curtly and even better arguably, I could honestly live with that. I'm biased so I'll argue for Curtly but Donald was top shelf.