Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

[HouHsiaoHsien]

He was opening because Waqar was raw at that point, though Waqar also opened the bowling earlier. Again, we don't need to make a big deal of this because we already acknowledge Ambrose superiority in Australia.

And Wasim bowled double the number of overs of Imran that tour, which if further evidence

 

[subshakerz]

The argument, to reiterate, is that Ambrose doesn't have a accomplished enough overall away record to establish himself as the better away bowler, as he has just Australia/England and little to show elsewhere.

Please address THIS argument.

 

[Prince EWS]

The argument, to reiterate, is that Ambrose doesn't have a accomplished enough overall away record to establish himself as the better away bowler, as he has just Australia/England and little to show elsewhere.

Please address THIS argument.

This argument is just analysis by checklist and therefore automatically putrid.

74% of Ambrose's away games were in England and Australia so yeah they should make up a very large proportion of how we rate him as an away bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

This argument is just analysis by checklist and therefore automatically putrid.

74% of Ambrose's away games were in England and Australia so yeah they should make up a very large proportion of how we rate him as an away bowler.

It's the same argument by which Lillee gets docked points too by the majority of posters. Lack of an established away record outside of a couple of countries.

Yet the posters here aren't willing to apply the same logic to Ambrose.

A better away bowler by default is one you would expect to be proven in different conditions. Otherwise why even make the home/away distinction

 

[Bolo.]

PEWS to admit Lillee's greatness or ban himself IMO.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Ambrose played 98 tests and averaged 21. Lillee played 70 tests and averaged 24. Significant difference I think

 

[OverratedSanity]

This argument is just analysis by checklist and therefore automatically putrid.

74% of Ambrose's away games were in England and Australia so yeah they should make up a very large proportion of how we rate him as an away bowler.

That's idiotic. The whole discussion was about who has a more complete record.

 

[kyear2]

It's the same argument by which Lillee gets docked points too by the majority of posters. Lack of an established away record outside of a couple of countries.

Yet the posters here aren't willing to apply the same logic to Ambrose.

A better away bowler by default is one you would expect to be proven in different conditions. Otherwise why even make the home/away distinction

And we're also comparing him to the bowler with the absolute worst home / away split of any ATG fast bowler.

And Ambrose bowled in Pakistan (we've long established 5 tests to be a min benchmark), Australia, England and South Africa (newly reintroduced). At the end of the day, he could only face who was placed in front of him, and that he did well. Only country he didn't touch was India, but believe it or not, schedules weren't made taking into account how you would rate the bowlers away records 30 years later.

 

[subshakerz]

Ambrose played 98 tests and averaged 21. Lillee played 70 tests and averaged 24. Significant difference I think

Not the point being discussed here. And I have already demonstrated that Ambrose's low average hides his lack of penetration.

 

[subshakerz]

And we're also comparing him to the bowler with the absolute worst home / away split of any ATG fast bowler.

Nice try but we aren't just going to take whole averages when discussing an away record.

And Ambrose bowled in Pakistan (we've long established 5 tests to be a min benchmark), Australia, England and South Africa (newly reintroduced). At the end of the day, he could only face who was placed in front of him, and that he did well. Only country he didn't touch was India, but believe it or not, schedules weren't made taking into account how you would rate the bowlers away records 30 years later.

Pakistan was 15 wickets in 5 tests, and SA is 13 wickets in 4 tests. Hardly an accomplishment for a premium ATG strikebowler. That is our issue. His output outside Australia/England is too low.

The 'he could only face who was placed in front of him' is exactly the argument for Lillee in defense of not playing in India, word for word.

 

[OverratedSanity]

People not actually acknowledging that Ambrose's lack of penetration late in his career was an actual problem is typical CW only look at the pretty average nonsense. It became an issue late in his career because teams just elected to see him off and cash in by smacking around the crap backup bowlers like Nixon McLean. If he'd averaged like 3-4 runs more but picked up more wickets, he likely would've had a bigger impact. CW posters just be putting "stats is not a synonym for career average" in their sig, and dont bother actually practicing what they preach.

 

[subshakerz]

People not actually acknowledging that Ambrose's lack of penetration late in his career was an actual problem is typical CW only look at the pretty average nonsense. It became an issue late in his career because teams just elected to see him off and cash in by smacking around the crap backup bowlers like Nixon McLean. If he'd averaged like 3-4 runs more but picked up more wickets, he likely would've had a bigger impact. CW posters just be putting "stats is not a synonym for career average", and dont bother actually practicing what they preach.

Bingo, bro. This is just superficial analysis.

I recall Ambrose late career series vs Pakistan in 2000. He took 11 wickets @ 20. But I can tell you his actual impact on that series was very little. He was mostly there filling one end and to be negotiated. Yet now posters here are going on blind averages to assess quality.

 

[Coronis]

You can keep posting the exact same thing over and over and it won’t change anything.

 

[subshakerz]

You can keep posting the exact same thing over and over and it won’t change anything.

Because you all aren't addressing the question head on.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You can keep posting the exact same thing over and over and it won’t change anything.

People not actually acknowledging that Ambrose's lack of penetration late in his career was an actual problem is typical CW only look at the pretty average nonsense. It became an issue late in his career because teams just elected to see him off and cash in by smacking around the crap backup bowlers like Nixon McLean. If he'd averaged like 3-4 runs more but picked up more wickets, he likely would've had a bigger impact. CW posters just be putting "stats is not a synonym for career average" in their sig, and dont bother actually practicing what they preach.

 

[ataraxia]

Very juicy fight unfolding here, one of the better ones we've had for a while *insert obligatory popcorn emoji here*

 

[ataraxia]

Anyway OS you can keep posting the exact same thing over and over and it won’t change anything.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

You can keep posting the exact same thing over and over and it won’t change anything.

That applies to what the pro-Ambrose people are saying as well

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And we're also comparing him to the bowler with the absolute worst home / away split of any ATG fast

And Ambrose bowled in Pakistan (we've long established 5 tests to be a min benchmark), Australia, England and South Africa (newly reintroduced). At the end of the day, he could only face who was placed in front of him, and that he did well. Only country he didn't touch was India, but believe it or not, schedules weren't made taking into account how you would rate the bowlers away records 30 years later.

I have explained the context behind this. the 1990 series was on very un-SC like conditions, and the 1997 one he didn’t do much. Also he played one test in SL, two in NZ, four in SA. And all in these countries his WPM was 2.5-3.2. So it’s not like he made any mark in those countries. Those matches can’t be used to indicate any semblance of a good record there

 

[subshakerz]

I don't have a problem with posters choosing Ambrose over Imran in away record, but to suggest it's not close it's ridiculous.

Once you factor in both average AND wicket tallies and series context, their records look like below:

Ambrose:
England - Great
Australia - Great
Pakistan - Okay
SA - Okay (single series)
India - N/A
NZ - Too small

Imran:
WI - Great
England - Good
Australia - Good
SL - Good (single series)
India - Okay
NZ - Okay

It's closer than people want to acknowledge.