Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

[Coronis]

Except he doesn't have a record or sample worth speaking of outside of Aus/Eng.



He didn't really. His record outside Aus/Eng is incomplete and just 36 wickets in 12 games.

I believe the thread is asking who was better away, not who was better away when you subtract their best two away performances.

 

[Prince EWS]

I believe the thread is asking who was better away, not who was better away when you subtract their best two away performances.

That'll probably be the next thread.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I believe the thread is asking who was better away, not who was better away when you subtract their best two away performances.

He's saying that Ambrose' record away from home is limited, by virtue of that, Imran's is better. I have provided a breakdown for the latter many times

 

[Coronis]

He's saying that Ambrose' record away from home is limited, by virtue of that, Imran's is better. I have provided a breakdown for the latter many times

Don only played in England away from home, but I’m still confident in saying he’s the best away batsman.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Don only played in England away from home, but I’m still confident in saying he’s the best away batsman.

Ambrose' record in Eng and Aus or for that matter, any players record in any country isn't close to Bradman accomplished in Eng. He was a statistical anomaly and exception

 

[subshakerz]

I believe the thread is asking who was better away, not who was better away when you subtract their best two away performances.

Lol imagine if this was a batsman we are talking about who averages 60 in two countries yet hardly scored any runs anywhere else, versus someone who averages 40 to 50 odd with decent run samples almost everywhere. I think the case would be clear that one batsman is more accomplished away from home.

 

[Line and Length]

Just read my breakdown. Outside of Aus and Eng, Ambrose has tiny records of 5 wickets in 2 matches or 3 wickets in one match at good averages in away countries. Can we really conclude anything from that. And his average of 25.2 in Pak is mediocre given that majority of his wickets were in the 1990 series playing on fast bowler favouring pitches. Imran on the other hand, was ATG in WI, brilliant in Aus, Eng, goodish in Ind, NZ(only 4 matches, but he outperformed Hadlee by a lot). So Ambrose’s away record is incomplete

"brilliant in Australia"? I've witnessed Imran bowling in 4 tours of Oz. My observations were that he had one excellent series with the ball.

76/77 18 wickets @ 28.83 reasonably good
78/79 7 wickets @ 40.71 disappointing
81/82 16 wickets @ 19.5 excellent
83/84 did not bowl
89/90 4 wickets @ 41.75 well past his best - I generally overlook this series.

Overall 45 @ 28.51 is reasonably good but hardly 'brilliant'

 

[subshakerz]

"brilliant in Australia"? I've witnessed Imran bowling in 4 tours of Oz. My observations were that he had one excellent series with the ball.

76/77 18 wickets @ 28.83 reasonably good
78/79 7 wickets @ 40.71 disappointing
81/82 16 wickets @ 19.5 excellent
83/84 did not bowl
89/90 4 wickets @ 41.75 well past his best - I generally overlook this series.

Overall 45 @ 28.51 is reasonably good but hardly 'brilliant'

Yes I generally consider his first three tours as representative of his bowing and they were pretty good overall. Sadly he missed peak bowling in 83/84 due to injury.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

"brilliant in Australia"? I've witnessed Imran bowling in 4 tours of Oz. My observations were that he had one excellent series with the ball.

76/77 18 wickets @ 28.83 reasonably good
78/79 7 wickets @ 40.71 disappointing
81/82 16 wickets @ 19.5 excellent
83/84 did not bowl
89/90 4 wickets @ 41.75 well past his best - I generally overlook this series.

Overall 45 @ 28.51 is reasonably good but hardly 'brilliant'

18 at 28 @WPM of 6 was brilliant cause he was the main strike bowler and bowler against very good lineups and one of those spells was one of the most important in Pak history, and the wickets in the first two matches were very flat. He literally has 3 5 wicket hauls in that series. If you exclude the last series, he had 41 wickets in 8 matches(WPM of 5+) and then you add his brilliant WSC performances. Brilliant, not Ambrose level tho

 

[Coronis]

18 at 28 @WPM of 6 was brilliant cause he was the main strike bowler and bowler against very good lineups and one of those spells was one of the most important in Pak history, and the wickets in the first two matches were very flat. He literally has 3 5 wicket hauls in that series. If you exclude the last series, he had 41 wickets in 8 matches(WPM of 5+) and then you add his brilliant WSC performances. Brilliant, not Ambrose level tho

Can I exclude Ambrose’s series when he was past his best?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Can I exclude Ambrose’s series when he was past his best?

You don’t need to. He in Aus is clearly better than Imran. But for Imran I exclude it cause he was not only past his best, but playing primarily as a batter

 

[kyear2]

Can I exclude Ambrose’s series when he was past his best?

And the early ones as well before he was at his best.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Ambrose has 3 tours to Aus so I guess we should take Imrans best 3 tours to Aus to compare. Ambrose still wins tho

 

[Coronis]

You don’t need to. He in Aus is clearly better than Imran. But for Imran I exclude it cause he was not only past his best, but playing primarily as a batter

Not specifically talking about their records in Australia, but whatever.

Unless there’s an extreme case like a World War (e.g in the cases of Hammond and Headley), I don’t ignore parts of players careers because it suits my argument.

 

[subshakerz]

Can I exclude Ambrose’s series when he was past his best?

Imran in 1990 series was clearly playing as a specialist bat at that point in his career, otherwise he would have retired. I don't mind including those stats though as long as we acknowledge that context.

Like if someone points to his 1990 stats and says, hey look he failed as a bowler then, I would question that.

 

[subshakerz]

None of you guys are actually addressing the argument.

Why is just Aus/Eng and low returns everywhere else enough to make a better away record?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Imran in 1990 series was clearly playing as a specialist bat at that point in his career, otherwise he would have retired. I don't mind including those stats though as long as we acknowledge that context.

Like if someone points to his 1990 stats and says, hey look he failed as a bowler then, I would question that.

This

 

[kyear2]

Imran in 90 series was clearly playing as a specialist bat at that point in his career, otherwise he would have retired. I don't mind including those stats though as long as we acknowledge that context.

He was opening the bowling, and in the last match he bowled more overs than Wasim or Waqar. There was no context to consider, sure if he took a 5 wicket haul it wouldn't have been a consideration.

But if you remove that series, his average goes from 28 to 27.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

He was opening the bowling, and in the last match he bowled more overs than Wasim or Waqar. There was no context to consider, sure if he took a 5 wicket haul it wouldn't have been a consideration.

But if you remove that series, his average goes from 28 to 27.

Average isn’t everything. His WPM was 5, and along with that average, considering he was primary strike bowler in the first series as well, and faced flat pitches then, and adding his great WSC performances, his record is brilliant. And despite opening the bowling, everyone knows Imran was playing primarily as a bat towards the end of his career. He obviously turned over his arm cause players don’t think about their stats constantly. And Wasim out-bowled him by nearly double the amount overall

 

[subshakerz]

He was opening the bowling, and in the last match he bowled more overs than Wasim or Waqar. There was no context to consider, sure if he took a 5 wicket haul it wouldn't have been a consideration.

He was opening because Waqar was raw at that point, though Waqar also opened the bowling earlier. Again, we don't need to make a big deal of this because we already acknowledge Ambrose superiority in Australia.