Is Ben Stokes an ATG test cricketer?

[bagapath]

Imran inspired, molded.

nope... he ran his team like a tribal leader would... autocratic and arrogant... I have always maintained that imran was not a great captain... heard from some of the forum members here that his approach was the right one for Pakistan and democracy would not work well in that team culture... I never agreed with that perspective... adult humans need to be treated like adults, not like cattle... Imran was that headstrong/ abusive/ arrogant leader of men who told everyone what to do... such a leader would never have become the captain in most other countries...

Imran's team running methods did not stem out of modern man management techniques that work in the long run... he never respected the contribution of others (didn't praise his team for the World Cup win and spoke from the podium only about his hospital)... he never believed in creating a system that would outlive him... the minute he retired, the team came off the wheels... despite having the most talented individuals Pakistan did not become a world beating team in the 90s because there was no culture built into the team fabric...

his failure as a political leader is an example of how he approached his captaincy - despite good intentions, perhaps - and why his leadership was never going to be good for his team (or his country) in the long run...

he is probably among the three greatest cricketers ever, despite being a poor fielder and the kind of captain who cannot be good for the system in the long run

 

[PlayerComparisons]

nope... he ran his team like a tribal leader would... autocratic and arrogant... I have always maintained that imran was not a great captain... heard from some of the forum members here that his approach was the right one for Pakistan and democracy would not in that team culture... I never agreed with that perspective... adult humans need to be treated like adults, not like cattle... Imran was that headstrong/ abusive/ arrogant leader of men who told everyone what to do... such a player would never have become captain of most other countries...

Imran's team running methods did not stem out of modern man management techniques that work in the long run... he never respected the contribution of others (didn't praise his team for the World Cup win and spoke from the podium only about his hospital)... he never believed in creating a system that would outlive him... the minute he retired, the team came off the wheels... despite having the most talented individuals Pakistan did not become a world beating team in the 90s because there was no culture built into the team fabric...

his failure as a political leader is an example of how he approached his captaincy - despite good intentions, perhaps - and why his leadership was never going to be good for his team (or his country) in the long run...

he is probably among the three greatest cricketers ever, despite being a poor fielder and the kind of captain who cannot be good for the long run

@subshakerz

 

[Noor ul Huda]

Yes may be i have. Actually i have to look in my mobile

Ben Stokes

Also welcome to the forum. Hope you have a great time here.

Thank.you

 

[ma1978]

nope... he ran his team like a tribal leader would... autocratic and arrogant... I have always maintained that imran was not a great captain... heard from some of the forum members here that his approach was the right one for Pakistan and democracy would not work well in that team culture... I never agreed with that perspective... adult humans need to be treated like adults, not like cattle... Imran was that headstrong/ abusive/ arrogant leader of men who told everyone what to do... such a leader would never have become the captain in most other countries...

Imran's team running methods did not stem out of modern man management techniques that work in the long run... he never respected the contribution of others (didn't praise his team for the World Cup win and spoke from the podium only about his hospital)... he never believed in creating a system that would outlive him... the minute he retired, the team came off the wheels... despite having the most talented individuals Pakistan did not become a world beating team in the 90s because there was no culture built into the team fabric...

his failure as a political leader is an example of how he approached his captaincy - despite good intentions, perhaps - and why his leadership was never going to be good for his team (or his country) in the long run...

he is probably among the three greatest cricketers ever, despite being a poor fielder and the kind of captain who cannot be good for the system in the long run

with the talent Pakistan had, they underscored massively with Imran as captain and in the years that followed that were his socalled legacy.

 

[Red]

High scoring era and low longevity. Disagree

96 tests. Lol

 

[honestbharani]

nope... he ran his team like a tribal leader would... autocratic and arrogant... I have always maintained that imran was not a great captain... heard from some of the forum members here that his approach was the right one for Pakistan and democracy would not work well in that team culture... I never agreed with that perspective... adult humans need to be treated like adults, not like cattle... Imran was that headstrong/ abusive/ arrogant leader of men who told everyone what to do... such a leader would never have become the captain in most other countries...

Imran's team running methods did not stem out of modern man management techniques that work in the long run... he never respected the contribution of others (didn't praise his team for the World Cup win and spoke from the podium only about his hospital)... he never believed in creating a system that would outlive him... the minute he retired, the team came off the wheels... despite having the most talented individuals Pakistan did not become a world beating team in the 90s because there was no culture built into the team fabric...

his failure as a political leader is an example of how he approached his captaincy - despite good intentions, perhaps - and why his leadership was never going to be good for his team (or his country) in the long run...

he is probably among the three greatest cricketers ever, despite being a poor fielder and the kind of captain who cannot be good for the system in the long run

For a post that concludes that he is one of the 3 greatest cricketers EVER, this also has to be the most critical post on Imran Khan in CW.

 

[bagapath]

For a post that concludes that he is one of the 3 greatest cricketers EVER, this also has to be the most critical post on Imran Khan in CW.

Of course, Imran was super effective and well respected as a captain by many experts... Indian fans from that era, like me, "feared him" so to speak... I have immense respect for him as a cricketer and I deeply admire him as an all round sportsman and politician with good intentions.

Only I believe his methods are too feudal for the 21st century. His success as a skipper - series wins in India and England, stopping the West Indies dead on their tracks thrice, winning the Nehru cup, winning the World Cup - makes him one of the best ever to lead any side in the sporting arena.

I think he just swept away the broken system in his country to build his own empire but failed to fix the problems for good because he was too autocratic. So yes, he belongs in the discussion on top captains. But a Worrell or a Border who made a lasting impact with the positives they brought to their teams would always get my vote ahead of him.

 

[howitzer]

96 tests. Lol

Number of Tests isn't the best way to determine longevity. Fact is, they were all played in a roughly 8 year period which is very short to be considered ATG on batting alone. Plus the fact he didn't average 50+ despite those 8 years coming in a high scoring era. I just don't get the argument.

 

[Victor Ian]

But also fact is that the run rate those runs were gotten at won many more games for his team than some stodgy fart averaging over 50 at 30sr.

 

[Coronis]

But also fact is that the run rate those runs were gotten at won many more games for his team than some stodgy fart averaging over 50 at 30sr.

I’d like to meet this stodgy fart.

 

[Nintendo]

You don't have to play your wicket keeper at 7 though. Yes, he's undoubtedly the best who ever played there, but Sangakkara was a better keeper and batsman, he just played a different role.

Wait what's the point here? Sangha averaged sub 40 when he had the gloves on in test's didn't he? In pretty much the same era gilly played in. He's also not a better keeper so I don't get what your saying.

 

[Nintendo]

Can somoene tl:dr the gilchrist ATG bat thing for me? I feel like he's not given he entered test's at peak age (28) and got to play in a very good lineup in one of the flattest batting era's ever. Not saying he didn't play some amazing knocks but he doesn't feel THAT much better than kevin pieterson purely on batting and KP isn't an ATG.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Can somoene tl:dr the gilchrist ATG bat thing for me? I feel like he's not given he entered test's at peak age (28) and got to play in a very good lineup in one of the flattest batting era's ever. Not saying he didn't play some amazing knocks but he doesn't feel THAT much better than kevin pieterson purely on batting and KP isn't an ATG.

I actually think more or less the same..... Gilchrist had many a great knocks; but was he really better than a VVS Laxman, Inzamam Ul Haq or Shivnarine Chanderpaul?

 

[GIMH]

Can’t believe all this Gilchrist discussion has happened without anyone mentioning how Flintoff pwned him

oh look I just did

 

[Red]

Can’t believe some tards don’t think Gilchrist is an atg

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Can somoene tl:dr the gilchrist ATG bat thing for me? I feel like he's not given he entered test's at peak age (28) and got to play in a very good lineup in one of the flattest batting era's ever. Not saying he didn't play some amazing knocks but he doesn't feel THAT much better than kevin pieterson purely on batting and KP isn't an ATG.

I think the argument is:

1. Gilchrist was an atg wicket keeper bat
2. Lots of people love Gilchrist
3. Therefore Gilchrist was an atg bat

 

[capt_Luffy]

Can’t believe some tards don’t think Gilchrist is an atg

Literally no one has said Gilly wasn't an ATG. Just that he wasn't an ATG batsman (like Ponting, Dravid, Miandad; I think at most Harvey or Compton) or an ATG keeper (like Healy, Evans, etc).

 

[CarlsbergXpress]

Ok been a while since I posted here, but here’s my take. These ATG arguments are always so open to discussion over era, stats, who they played for etc etc.

Now I’m just thinking out loud here but….. To simplify matters could we not make it defining ATG-ness as, does player X get into a top 10 of all time in their discipline, or not?

obviously there is some flex around definition of discipline.

However, using this logic Gilchrist makes my top 10 as an ATG keeper/batsman.
Stokes does not as a bat/bowl (or even bowl/bat) all rounder.

Looking forward to being shot down in flames and slinking back off to my cider

 

[howitzer]

Ok been a while since I posted here, but here’s my take. These ATG arguments are always so open to discussion over era, stats, who they played for etc etc.

Now I’m just thinking out loud here but….. To simplify matters could we not make it defining ATG-ness as, does player X get into a top 10 of all time in their discipline, or not?

obviously there is some flex around definition of discipline.

However, using this logic Gilchrist makes my top 10 as an ATG keeper/batsman.
Stokes does not as a bat/bowl (or even bowl/bat) all rounder.

Looking forward to being shot down in flames and slinking back off to my cider

John Waite is clearly top 10 (usually third in my list of wkbs. Ponting and Chappell wouldn't make my top 10 bats yet i'd definitely have the latter two as greater cricketers. Explain that.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Top 10 for every discipline is too restrictive, it should reflect the relative numbers of high-performers per discipline

eg. Top 20 batsmen, Top 10 fast bowlers, Top 4 spinners, Top 3 WK/bats

or something like that