Is Ben Stokes an ATG test cricketer?

[Gob]

No one's saying he's not an ATG player

but whether he's an ATG batsman alone.

Which is a very big call for a bloke that averaged 47

He slightly falls behind being an ATG bat tbh. He could have been as a pure bat batting at 4

 

[TheJediBrah]

fair enough. I’d say yes given the context of his innings but it’s more debatable

I think on the context of his innings, and on what he could have achieved, he definitely would be. But on what he actually did do based on his opportunities, probably not

 

[BazBall21]

Probably not quite. ATVG. Player of great performances and had a super peak but needed to be a little more consistent in his stronger suit. Will be one of the more memorable players of his generation.

 

[BazBall21]

Now debating whether Gilchrist is ATG or not?

 

[BazBall21]

Shakib 39.1
Stokes 36.4

Opposition breakdown makes a difference.

And not saying Stokes is an ATG.

 

[Gob]

Shakib is an atg fool

 

[thierry henry]

Couple things:

- Entered at his peak but should have been earlier and missed a few of his best years, while staying a couple years past his peak
- Having watched virtually every innings he played, despite it being an obvious conclusion, I don't think he really benefited, statistically or career-wise, from batting 7 behind a strong top 6 as he did. While occasionally you can fill you boots against a tired and demoralised attack in practice this didn't happen that often. Mostly in good batting times he came in and had to do some declaration batting (usually only batting once a Test) often throwing his wicket away whereas in tougher conditions he'd come in against a firing attack and generally bat twice a game.

Put him in a weaker team and bat him higher he would end up with better stats. Would have had a **** load more great Test innings as well like his 149 v Pak, 144 v Ban, 144 v SL & couple of his tons in India

To me (who had to watch a painfully large amount of the guy) there has rarely been a player more suited to consequence-free declaration batting. I can’t even imagine him as a ‘proper’ batsman in the top order (in test cricket obv), when he was so ideally suited to the role he had, boshing like a madman come hell or high water. But then I usually feel like I saw a totally different Gilchrist to everyone else, plus Virender Sehwag exists, so who knows.

 

[BazBall21]

Gilchrist may have gone even better at 5. Still generally well away from the new ball and more time to smash runs.

 

[TheJediBrah]

To me (who had to watch a painfully large amount of the guy) there has rarely been a player more suited to consequence-free declaration batting. I can’t even imagine him as a ‘proper’ batsman in the top order (in test cricket obv), when he was so ideally suited to the role he had

Did you somehow miss all of his best, match-winning knocks?

Tbf if you saw him mostly against NZ I can see why you would think that. Didn't often get the chance to do much of note against them. There was his 80-odd on day 5 of the drawn Perth Test of 2001 that saved the game and the series. I recall him making 75 in the 2000 series when Aus were 5/29 and another top-scoring 50-odd in a low scoring game that were pretty important. But other than that his hundreds against NZ were mostly in dominant team performances (they weren't much of a challenge).

 

[thierry henry]

Did you somehow miss all of his best, match-winning knocks?

I don’t think so, but unless these knocks involved him unveiling an entire separate range of shots from the ones he normally used then I doubt they would’ve done much for me.

In all seriousness, Gilchrist is my least favourite cricketer of all time (at least Stokes’s batting can be a bit aesthetic at times) so I’m not actually attempting to make a serious argument here.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don’t think so, but unless these knocks involved him unveiling an entire separate range of shots from the ones he normally used then I doubt they would’ve done much for me.

i don't know about range of shots but they ranged from involving ridiculous innings when his team were ****ed and ended up winning games they definitely should not have to, well, just good old match-turning knocks

Basically the opposite of the "punishing a tired attack from a dominant position" narrative (which of course did still happen, a lot tbf)

 

[Chin Music]

Opposition breakdown makes a difference.

And not saying Stokes is an ATG.

Exactly, as I pointed out on another thread a while ago, Shakib has had the opportunity to pad his bowling stats against Zimbabwe and also had the opportunity to play something like the West Indian c team near the start of his career when their main side went on strike (it also uplifted his batting average too). Not exactly his fault, but it is a clarification I consider strongly when evaluating someone's overall performance. The discussion of evaluating a 'big 3 player' also brings with it the fact that a player has to play far more against India/Australia than what Shakib has done.

As I said above, I don't consider Stokes to truly be a great, but his ability to have impact against the better sides is something that marks him out. Remember, in his debut series when England were getting thumped by Australia, he still had it in him to get a hundred at Perth and took a five fer that series aside from the obvious memorable performances over the last few years. Even if we still consider Shakib slightly ahead with the ball (as I do, but nowhere near as substantially as the stat tards), Stokes has had far more of an impact in batting against the better bowling outfits. Now again, it isn't unreasonable to point out that Shakib simply hasn't played as much against the better sides, and even less so away from home, but that said, he's not done so well with the bat when he's done so even if there's a confidence issue with relatively few games against them.

 

[Gob]

Gilchrist was one of the most naturally gifted batsmen of all time. You cant just sweep your way to 140s against Murali in Sri Lanka without knowing which way the ball turns without a serious eye

Had he played for New Zealand, would have made 10k runs at 45 batting at 4 and been heralded as their greatest ever player

 

[thierry henry]

Gilchrist was one of the most naturally gifted batsmen of all time. You cant just sweep your way to 140s against Murali in Sri Lanka without knowing which way the ball turns without a serious eye

Had he played for New Zealand, would have made 10k runs at 45 batting at 4 and been heralded as their greatest ever player

Probably. BazMac was a very poor man’s Gilchrist and he’s regarded as not only a minor NZ great but something of a transformative figure both in NZ cricket and now international cricket. He was an unwatchable sloggy **** too.

 

[thierry henry]

Actually I find Gilchrist quite a likeable bloke tbh so that’s unfair. Just wish he’d failed at cricket and done something else with his life.

 

[BazBall21]

Never enjoyed McCullum either. Obviously a good player but too much pre-meditated improvising/slogging. Gilly was top class imo. He looked in control so much more than McCullum did and was more orthodox etc.

And anyone who doesn't regard him as a ATG cricketer clearly has a metric system that's too rigid or biased.

 

[BazBall21]

Actually I find Gilchrist quite a likeable bloke tbh so that’s unfair. Just wish he’d failed at cricket and done something else with his life.

Accountant, lawyer, actor, fireman etc.

 

[Yeoman]

Indeed, a new high-speed form of accountancy would make the profession more glamorous and exciting to outsiders.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Indeed, a new high-speed form of accountancy would make the profession more glamorous and exciting to outsiders.

"We're saving chartered accountancy!"

 

[howitzer]

Never enjoyed McCullum either. Obviously a good player but too much pre-meditated improvising/slogging. Gilly was top class imo. He looked in control so much more than McCullum did and was more orthodox etc.

And anyone who doesn't regard him as a ATG cricketer clearly has a metric system that's too rigid or biased.

I have him as an ATG cricketer. It's 'Borderline ATG batsman' I don't agree with.