Ambrose vs Warne: Greater Test Bowler?

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ambrose was deadly in Australia, England and South Africa, arguably more than any other bowler; the only place Imran reached those heights were in Pakistan, and well, performance in Pakistan by Pakistanis back then will always carry a 'but' with them due to the umpires like Shakoor Rana.....

Nah Imran in WI was as good. Those WI teams were ATG, and he took 48 wickets in 8 matches vs them. Godly. And a high concentration of Imran’s dismissals were bowled. Ambrose in Aus was truly magnificent, but faced really horrid batting lineups in Eng, and never played in SA. I’d take Imran in Pak and Wi over Ambrose in Eng very very easily, and on par with Ambrose in Aus

 

[capt_Luffy]

Nah Imran in WI was as good. Those WI teams were ATG, and he took 48 wickets in 8 matches vs them. Godly. And a high concentration of Imran’s dismissals were bowled. Ambrose in Aus was truly magnificent, but faced really horrid batting lineups in Eng, and never played in SA. I’d take Imran in Pak and Wi over Ambrose in Eng very very easily, and on par with Ambrose in Aus

Imran in West Indies was really good, but not really 'godly' or Ambrose in Australia.... Kapil actually has a better average against the same Windies team in WI

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Imran in West Indies was really good, but not really 'godly' or Ambrose in Australia.... Kapil actually has a better average against the same Windies team in WI

Yes but Imran's WPM is clearly superior, much bigger difference there than in averages(Kapil's WPM wasn't even 2/3rds third of Imran's) Also he nearly single handedly in 1987 won a series there, against all odds. Considering his brilliant average(against there is context here, his first series, he was the leading bowler, which probably inflated his average, otherwise would have sub 25 in all probability), insane WPM and SR, and the quality of his opposition, his performances abasing WI are probably amongst the greatest by an individual against a team in history

 

[Saket1209]

Ambrose was exceptional in all the countries except Pakistan. Has a very good outing in Pakistan in 90 and was bashed in the 97 series. But you have to keep an account that 97 was the worst year for curtly Ambrose and he was at his lowest. Then he came back to his own in 98 against Eng and SA.
And not playing in India wasn't his fault. He missed the 94 series and in those 12 years Wi toured just once to India. We don't know how he would have been there. But you can't degrade him for that. During those days ,ENG and AUS was the marquee series for wi and against both he performed exceptional with 5wpm and an average of 20 striking at 52 or something.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ambrose was exceptional in all the countries except Pakistan. Has a very good outing in Pakistan in 90 and was bashed in the 97 series. But you have to keep an account that 97 was the worst year for curtly Ambrose and he was at his lowest. Then he came back to his own in 98 against Eng and SA.
And not playing in India wasn't his fault. He missed the 94 series and in those 12 years Wi toured just once to India. We don't know how he would have been there. But you can't degrade him for that. During those days ,ENG and AUS was the marquee series for wi and against both he performed exceptional with 5wpm and an average of 20 striking at 52 or something.

Eng has horrid teams then. That 1990 series vs Pak was on pitches favouring fast bowlers. All in all he didn’t prove himself in the SC, without a fault of his win as it might be

 

[Saket1209]

Eng has horrid teams then. That 1990 series vs Pak was on pitches favouring fast bowlers. All in all he didn’t prove himself in the SC, without a fault of his win as it might be

Wasim Akram averaged 29 in Eng against that same horrid team. Waqar 28 in Eng. walsh was horrible till the 2000 series in Eng. Then they must me given extra de merit points for not performing well enough against that horrid Eng.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Wasim Akram averaged 29 in Eng against that same horrid team. Waqar 28 in Eng. walsh was horrible till the 2000 series in Eng. Then they must me given extra de merit points for not performing well enough against that horrid Eng.

Doesn’t change the fact they had horrid lineups, which Ambrose dominated.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Doesn’t change the fact they had horrid lineups, which Ambrose dominated.

It certainly changes that most other Greats didn't dominated does horrid line-ups

 

[Saket1209]

You can't just judge a bowler on the basis of his subcontinent records. Warne struggled in India even being one of the greatest spinner in helpful condition. Same for Murli. Most of the overseas fast bowler struggles in Aus. Yeah we give some weightage to it but can't whole heartedly rely on just one parameter.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

It certainly changes that most other Greats didn't dominated does horrid line-ups

Eng had a horrid team in the 90s. Anyways Ambrose in Eng isn’t a shade on Imran in WI, unless you are going to convince me that Eng 1990s was as good as WI circa 1976-1991

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

You can't just judge a bowler on the basis of his subcontinent records. Warne struggled in India even being one of the greatest spinner in helpful condition. Same for Murli. Most of the overseas fast bowler struggles in Aus. Yeah we give some weightage to it but can't whole heartedly rely on just one parameter.

Yes I agree. That’s why Ambrose is in my top 6 bowlers, but below Marshall, Mcgrath, Hadlee, Imran and Steyn. Ambrose>Warne for me btw

 

[capt_Luffy]

Eng had a horrid team in the 90s. Anyways Ambrose in Eng isn’t a shade on Imran in WI, unless you are going to convince me that Eng 1990s was as good as WI circa 1976-1991

Ambrose didn't averaged nearly as much in England as Imran did in Pakistan as well....

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ambrose didn't averaged nearly as much in England as Imran did in Pakistan as well....

Yep. Imran in Pak and WI=Ambrose in Aus, but greater than Ambrose in Eng.

 

[Saket1209]

Yes I agree. That’s why Ambrose is in my top 6 bowlers, but below Marshall, Mcgrath, Hadlee, Imran and Steyn. Ambrose>Warne for me btw

Agree to you but for me Ambrose is on par with steyn and Imran. On par means for me that we will choose either of them wrt condition. But Mcgrath, Hadlee and Marshall are above them no ques on that.

 

[Migara]

That's actually a very interesting question. When you compare Warne and McGrath's stats, it becomes increasingly clear that McGrath was better in most places across most conditions. But throughout their whole playing careers, McGrath has been presented as a side kick to Warne..... Imo it has much to do with the fact that McGrath was less showy than Warne. Hell, I still get confused by the fact that when ESPNCRICINFO made thier All Time teams, both Warne and Lillee got in the first team, with Warne being the only player alongside Bradman and Sobers to get a vote from every judge; while McGrath didn't even made the 3rd team in which Prasanna, Qadir and Larwood were present....

Absolutely true. If some one picks McGrath over Marshall, I will not lose sleep over it. He was so good. If not for him, Warne would have got lot worse figures against SC teams and probably against WI too.

 

[subshakerz]

As stated, it's borderline for Ambrose, so anyone below would be as well. And I haven't said that Imran isn't ahead of them, as I've said in another thread, it's back and forth for me for if he's before or after the spinners.

And it's not a knock, he's locked in at 6th (among pacers) for me, where the consensus on the forum seems to be anywhere from 6th - 8th.

Additionally I do rate Warne marginally higher than Murali so it's incredibly close between the two of them.

Finally, been wondering why Warne is rated as highly as he is, especially by the establishment (saw yet another old sky vid where he was the named in the top 10 of all time, plus the only bowler to be mentioned). I have no doubt McGrath was better, but who was more important to the Aussie dynasty?

You didn't really answer my question bro.

 

[subshakerz]

Ambrose was exceptional in all the countries except Pakistan. Has a very good outing in Pakistan in 90 and was bashed in the 97 series. But you have to keep an account that 97 was the worst year for curtly Ambrose and he was at his lowest. Then he came back to his own in 98 against Eng and SA.
And not playing in India wasn't his fault. He missed the 94 series and in those 12 years Wi toured just once to India. We don't know how he would have been there. But you can't degrade him for that. During those days ,ENG and AUS was the marquee series for wi and against both he performed exceptional with 5wpm and an average of 20 striking at 52 or something.

Here is the problem.

Ambrose playing two series in Pakistan, one in which he along with half a dozen other pacers did well, and another in which he failed completely, plus a single test in SL and none in India, does not equal being PROVEN in SC conditions. Imran and Steyn though have large enough success sample sizes in the SC in contrast.

The other issue is that 60% of his career was post-94 shoulder injury, taking less than 4WPM, less penetration and much more dependent on conditions.

Agree to you but for me Ambrose is on par with steyn and Imran. On par means for me that we will choose either of them wrt condition. But Mcgrath, Hadlee and Marshall are above them no ques on that.

I would choose Imran over Hadlee and McGrath if playing in the SC tho below them overall.

You can't just judge a bowler on the basis of his subcontinent records. Warne struggled in India even being one of the greatest spinner in helpful condition. Same for Murli. Most of the overseas fast bowler struggles in Aus. Yeah we give some weightage to it but can't whole heartedly rely on just one parameter.

There isn't a fast bowler in the top ten ever who would suck in Australia. That would be an instant disqualifier. And anyone who sucked completely in the SC would be disqualified too. Lillee and Ambrose didn't have sufficient opportunities.

 

[reyrey]

Yes but Imran's WPM is clearly superior, much bigger difference there than in averages(Kapil's WPM wasn't even 2/3rds third of Imran's) Also he nearly single handedly in 1987 won a series there, against all odds. Considering his brilliant average(against there is context here, his first series, he was the leading bowler, which probably inflated his average, otherwise would have sub 25 in all probability), insane WPM and SR, and the quality of his opposition, his performances abasing WI are probably amongst the greatest by an individual against a team in history

Wickets per match is a misleading stat here. Imran bowled in 8 Tests and 16 innings, Kapil 9 Tests and only 13 innings.

Imran in total bowled 66 more overs than Kapil so hardly surprising he took more wickets. Better off looking at bowling average and strike rate here.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Wickets per match is a misleading stat here. Imran bowled in 8 Tests and 16 innings, Kapil 9 Tests and only 13 innings.

Imran in total bowled 66 more overs than Kapil so hardly surprising he took more wickets. Better off looking at bowling average and strike rate here.

Imran was overbowled to a great extent in his first series there. That's why his average is 25+ there. Imran has an SR of 45, Kapil 51. Having said this, Kapil also performed amazingly in and against WI

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And Imran's WPM is more by a considerable margin