Greatest Test XI

[peterhrt]

That would have been 70s SA
G. Pollock, B. Richards, Procter, Rice, vander bijl, P. Pollock ..

South African representative teams that actually played together during the 1970s. Opponents were Derrick Robins' XI and International Wanderers who were nearly all Test cricketers.

Nov/Dec 1973, 2 matches: Richards, Barlow*, Ackerman, Graeme Pollock, Irvine, Procter, Anthony Biggs, du Preez, Tich Smith+, Swart, van der Bijl.

For the third match of the series Pelham Henwood replaced du Preez as spinner and fast bowler Rupert Hanley came in for Smith, with Irvine keeping wicket.

April 1976: Richards, Barlow*, Rice, Graeme Pollock, Irvine, Lorrie Wilmot, Graham Francois, Tich Smith+, van der Bijl, Howard Bergins, Ismail Ebrahim.

In 1980 Mike Procter was asked to pick a team representing ten years of isolation, with himself as captain. He chose a squad of 13: Richards, Jimmy Cook, Peter Kirsten, Graeme Pollock, Allan Lamb, Rice, Barlow, Procter*, Tich Smith+, le Roux, van der Bijl, and Hobson or Kourie as spinner.

 

[ataraxia]

Where did I ever say that?

Well Imran is indisputably the greatest of all time, so were Procter greater than him...

 

[kyear2]

Well Imran is indisputably the greatest of all time, so were Procter greater than him...

Wasn't there a poll about this, I honestly can't remember. One 3 real candidates in any event.

Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

Thankfully I'm not obligated to. lol, then don’t bring it up

www.cricketweb.net

I did find that, but I'll look for one with Bradman included.

 

[ataraxia]

Where does Imran Khan rank?

Where does the great man rank?

www.cricketweb.net

 

[kyear2]

Where does Imran Khan rank?

Where does the great man rank?

www.cricketweb.net

Yeah, the answer with the highest number of votes was top 5. But not conclusive in any event.

Didn't see a poll in our history with Bradman, Sobers and Imran head to head. Will post one, if one is found can always delete mine.

 

[reyrey]

Hayden
Slater
Langer
Waugh
Waugh
Ponting
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee/Gillespie
McGrath
Colin Miller (Australian Test player of the year in 2001)

This IMO was a better Aus XI from around 2000/01

 

[Bolo.]

Hmm.. agreeing on this one. Bowling is the one where they’re likely closest but I’ll look at their county stat comparisons where they both played.

Procter (1968-1981) 259 matches 14441 runs @ 36.19, 32 tons, 833 wickets @ 19.56, 45.95 SR, 42 5’fers, 209 catches

Imran (1975-1988) 173 matches 8537 runs @ 38.30, 17 tons, 537 wickets @ 21.08, 47.92 SR, 27 5’fers, 51 catches

I’d say there’s little to differentiate them in bowling, at least in England. Procter could have fallen anywhere from 6th to 15th+ on the fast bowling list if he’d had a full career, the gaps are quite small.

In terms of batting it seems like Procter was closer to a Botham type than an Imran type, though that’s just my interpretation. Fielding is obviously NC. Captaincy obviously goes to Imran (though Procter certainly had success in that department in county/list A cricket too)

What are Hadlee's county stats?

 

[Coronis]

What are Hadlee's county stats?

Hadlee (1978-1987) 148 matches 5854 runs @ 38.76, 11 tons, 622 wickets @ 14.51, 40.15 SR, 38 5’fers, 105 catches

Batting here is much better than expected… 11 of his 14 FC centuries, plus 2 in tests. (1 against Roberts, Holding, Garner and Croft in NZ in 1980). Last one was for a “New Zealanders” team - I can’t find the actual match or opponent atm. I’m assuming it was a NZ XI for a tour match outside of the tests.

*Also should probably technically post that these are stats just for the players county teams, they may also include games - such as tour matches - that were outside the actual county champ.

 

[Coronis]

Well Imran is indisputably the greatest of all time, so were Procter greater than him...

Well for one, he’s not the greatest of all time.

Procter had the potential to be one of the ATG test cricketers and its fun to speculate and easy to get caught up in it ofc, but yeah fact remains he didn’t get a proper test career. He can certainly go down as a player with a great FC career, though ofc we know there are a lot more FC outliers with stats.

 

[ataraxia]

Well for one, he’s not the greatest of all time.

Mate he averaged 44 with bat and 19 with ball in a 10-year peak. How could one possibly ask for more?

 

[Bolo.]

Hadlee (1978-1987) 148 matches 5854 runs @ 38.76, 11 tons, 622 wickets @ 14.51, 40.15 SR, 38 5’fers, 105 catches

Batting here is much better than expected… 11 of his 14 FC centuries, plus 2 in tests. (1 against Roberts, Holding, Garner and Croft in NZ in 1980). Last one was for a “New Zealanders” team - I can’t find the actual match or opponent atm. I’m assuming it was a NZ XI for a tour match outside of the tests.

*Also should probably technically post that these are stats just for the players county teams, they may also include games - such as tour matches - that were outside the actual county champ.

Ya, that's ridiculous.

Wonder if that puts him in the running for the county GOAT.

 

[Coronis]

Mate he averaged 44 with bat and 19 with ball in a 10-year peak. How could one possibly ask for more?

Could ask him to stop ball tampering. Could ask him to stop hiding down the order if he was truly a 40+ averaging batsman. Could ask him to bowl better away. Could ask people to not ignore his 70’s career no matter how **** it is, etc.

 

[ataraxia]

Could ask him to stop ball tampering. Could ask him to stop hiding down the order if he was truly a 40+ averaging batsman. Could ask him to bowl better away. Could ask people to not ignore his 70’s career no matter how **** it is, etc.

Ball tampering, sure. Bowling away – well, throughout his career, most of his matches were away and his record is impacted thus. I don't think averaging 21.5 away is bad anyway.

Re hiding down the order, he did have to carry the Pakistan bowling attack tbf so in Pak's strong batting lineup he naturally dropped to 7 (and when he batted higher he suddenly became Lara anyway, same for when he stopped bowling).

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ies-vs-pakistan-1st-test-63481/full-scorecard was the first match I found he batted 7 in and after taking 7–80 and having to captain too, Ijaz Ahmed naturally batted before him.

Oops okay I'll stop ignoring his 70s career in which he was **** but still contributing for Pakistan, because apparently being too bad to be picked is better, fine that makes perfect sense, oh dear he still has stupidly good averages over a 20.5-year career

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ball tampering, sure. Bowling away – well, throughout his career, most of his matches were away and his record is impacted thus. I don't think averaging 21.5 away is bad anyway.

His away bowling average away is 25.76, and that too pumped up by Sri Lanka. Without Sri Lanka, his average turns to be 27.5, which isn't bad by most standards but isn't spectacular either.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Imran did average 21 with the ball against the West Indies who were the best team of his era

 

[kyear2]

His away bowling average away is 25.76, and that too pumped up by Sri Lanka. Without Sri Lanka, his average turns to be 27.5, which isn't bad by most standards but isn't spectacular either.

Yeah, the split between home (19) and away was always a bit stark and not repeated among the other top tier bowlers, but I get eviscerated and accused about being a hater when I bring it up.

 

[trundler]

Could ask him to stop hiding down the order if he was truly a 40+ averaging batsman.

This is an utterly moronic statement. The bloke was averaging 40 with the bat whilst he was in the midst of the greatest peak any pace bowler has ever had. He was a specialist quality batsman on top of being the best pacer in the world. Nobody thinks he was as good as Gordon Greenidge with the bat in the 80s so that's a red herring anyway. And he literally averaged more with the bat the higher up he batted so it's not like we're talking about a Vettori situation where he's got an excellent record at 8 but is allergic to batting higher up.

Could ask him to bowl better away

10fers and series defining performances everywhere he played. Totally makes sense to penalise him for extending his career in a different role after a career ending injury because he ended up with a less pretty away average. Nonsensical criticism.

 

[kyear2]

If we were to break down the 80's vs mid 90's options not sure it doesn't get more confusing.

Using to '80 vs 2002

Openers are pretty equal, with the Aussie duo's stats being a tad higher. I think I also rate Langer a bit higher than Haynes, but struggle to see how Haydos would handle the quartet.

Richards vs Ponting, in their prime they were brutal and epitomized all out attack. Viv the slightest of edges

Middle order, will give the advantage to the guys from down under. Steve is rated above Lloyd and none of the others were world beaters of that order.

Gilly is a huge advantage vs Murray or Dijon with the bat

Pace bowling has to go the the Calypso cricketers. As great as McGrath is, Gillespie and Lee just doesn't compare to Garner / Holding / Roberts in 1980. Marshall and McGrath speak for themselves.

Warne is obviously in a different area code to when we trotted out Harper, but not enough to make the bowlers a wash in my mind. So bowling advantage WI, but variety points to Australia.

Fielding was a hallmark for both clubs. Lloyd, Richards and Pointing were brilliant everywhere and both had superb cordons. A composite cordon would consist of Lloyd, Waugh and Ponting, indicating an edge for the Aussies, but Warne may have also been the weakest of the 6.

What a series this would be.

 

[Bolo.]

Totally makes sense to penalise him for extending his career in a different role after a career ending injury because he ended up with a less pretty away average. Nonsensical criticism.

His away average only dropped below 25 for 1 game in his career, and it was near the end. It ended less than 1 point down from his best. He didn't blow out his average anymore than a typical end career bowler, and possibly less than is typical due to his bowling workload dropping drastically. Early career is what damaged his average.

 

[kyear2]

Since my attempt to get the thread back on line wasn't successful

I rate Imran as highly as most on the forum as a bowler. I have him 6th, just behind my top tier. 6th, so I don't hate the man. True I don't rate his batting but that's outside the scope the the discussion at hand.

He was better at home than he was away, and this was everywhere.
He averaged
28 in Australia
24 in England
28 in India
26 in NZ
18 in SL (though compared to a 14 overall average)
25 in W. I.

Had nothing to do with the end of his career, unless I'm to believe he only bowled on the road near the end, and Bolo put an end to that as well. He was magnificent but those numbers are good, but definitely not elite and away from home I trust him less than I do the 5 above him.

One can acclaim his greatness while acknowledging that he wasn't as good away as he was at home..