Curtly Ambrose vs Wasim Akram

[trundler]

And not just here, but Pakistan home conditions have been brought up many times in these types of debates.

Because conditions matter.

 

[BazBall21]

I would prefer Akram on classical unhelpful Asian wickets, but Ambrose was a God against Australia.

 

[kyear2]

I would vastly prefer Akram on classical unhelpful Asian wickets, but Ambrose was a God against Australia.

Ambrose didn't play in India, but as referenced above had some good performances on the flatter wickets in the Caribbean. Bourda, Queens Park for example. He was also, I guess average in Pakistan.

Wasim was great in Pakistan but a touch below average in India.
Same way I didn't use his SA average against him, wouldn't use the small Bangladesh sample size either.

SL was, I beg pardon, but a joke for most fast bowlers in the 80's and 90's.

So while Wasim Was great in Pakistan and Ambrose didn't play in India (so basic incomplete), I can't definitively say Ambrose wasn't possibly as good on unresponsive or low bouncing wickets.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Wasim was great in Pakistan but a touch below average in India.
Same way I didn't use his SA average against him, wouldn't use the small Bangladesh sample size either.

He wasn't unless you are taking his stats out of context.

He played two series in India and one match in Asian championship.

In the first series where he average almost 32 and due to which his stats are kind bad he was the best bowler on either side. The pitch for the series was either dead or dust bowls. The other fast bowlers Kapil and Imran averaged 39 and 49 respectively.

 

[kyear2]

He wasn't unless you are taking his stats out of context.

He played two series in India and one match in Asian championship.

In the first series where he average almost 32 and due to which his stats are kind bad he was the best bowler on either side. The pitch for the series was either dead or dust bowls. The other fast bowlers Kapil and Imran averaged 39 and 49 respectively.

But isn't that kind of the point we're trying to prove?
Sc conditions being dead and unresponsive and who would be best in them? Weren't the Indian pitches renowned for that period?

 

[Adorable Asshole]

But isn't that kind of the point we're trying to prove?
Sc conditions being dead and unresponsive and who would be best in them? Weren't the Indian pitches renowned for that period?

I'm not here trying to prove any point. I think Ambrose is a better bowler than Wasim by a small but clear margin. And I don't think Ambrose is not good on unresponsive tracks though i think his strength is good bouncy pitches. I just thought your comment about Wasim being below average in India was reductive and is contrary to Indian fans opinion of Wasim in India.

 

[kyear2]

I'm not here trying to prove any point. I think Ambrose is a better bowler than Wasim by a small but clear margin. And I don't think Ambrose is not good on unresponsive tracks though i think his strength is good bouncy pitches. I just thought your comment about Wasim being below average in India was reductive and is contrary to Indian fans opinion of Wasim in India.

Understood.

Let me try this.

Baz said he was good and preferred in SC pitches, while he was exceptional on Pak pitches, his performance in India wasn't quite on the same level. Yes there's context, there always context for every single player for every single stat.

Not saying he wasn't good.

 

[ataraxia]

Did I say that? I said if a player has conditions that are supposedly more difficult for but those conditions are at home then it's more likely they'll adapt. Therefore they don't get extra points for adapting to said home conditions. Who should get extra points are the non-Pakistan fast bowlers who go there and do well. Because duh, those condition are completely foreign to them.

So you think that Philander > Kapil as both had the chance to adapt to their home conditions and Philander averaged 7 points less?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Jadeja > Warne IMO, jadeja did a better job of mastering his home conditions

 

[kyear2]

So you think that Philander > Kapil as both had the chance to adapt to their home conditions and Philander averaged 7 points less?

This conversation has been warped to prove a point that doesn't exist.

Let's look back at the original conversation. There were three factors that impacted his final average that misrepresents his overall career.

The length of his career, especially compared to other fast bowlers. If he had resigned earlier his numbers would have looked much better.

Inadequate cathing support, lots of dropped catches in the cordon. No doubt most of the bowlers rates above him had much better slip cordons and catching and this could have impacted his numbers. It must be noted that he attacked the stumps more than most, but still must have been a hindrance.

Now these two factors would have had negatively influenced his final average. One is 100% verifiable and the other definitely plausible.

The third one was that he played in tougher home conditions and that would also have negatively affected his average. So how that could possibly work, is if this home average was disproportionately higher, that one can look at his over seas averages to get a feeling for how he would have done in better home conditions.
Only problem is that he averaged better at home than away, even if by a relatively small margin. Pakistan was the second lowest average he had in any country, so how would one look at that and say that playing at home in Pakistan negatively impacted his average. That's my only point.

 

[akilana]

Wasim is the most overrated bowler. If the conditions in Pakistan were less helpful to his bowling, he'd have been better in SA, England, NZ etc.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Bowling conditions were pretty good in Pakistan in the 80s and 90s since you could tamper with the ball

 

[kyear2]

Ahh, so it's just me the select few jumps on.

 

[ataraxia]

Ahh, so it's just me the select few jumps on.

PC is a troll, Jesus

 

[shortpitched713]

Bowling conditions were pretty good in Pakistan in the 80s and 90s since you could tamper with the ball

Cite all the proven cases in said period where players in Pakistan were found to have tampered with the ball. Kthx.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ahh, so it's just me the select few jumps on.

PlayerComparisons is never going to get any response bevause he's chatgpt in CW poster form who doesn’t have any opinions of his own.

 

[shortpitched713]

PlayerComparisons is never going to get any response bevause he's chatgpt in CW poster form who doesn’t have any opinions of his own.

More like rogue AI, as I'm pretty sure chathpt wouldn't just throw out accusations like this without evidence.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Ahh, so it's just me the select few jumps on.

It doesn’t mean we should ignore home conditions for other players but let’s not act like bowlers from Pakistan were at any type of disadvantage lol

 

[shortpitched713]

It doesn’t mean we should ignore home conditions for other players but let’s not act like bowlers from Pakistan were at any type of disadvantage lol

It's called the graveyard of fast bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

It doesn’t mean we should ignore home conditions for other players but let’s not act like bowlers from Pakistan were at any type of disadvantage lol

I'm not even touching that subject.