• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Find a better bowler peak (min 33 Tests) than this (protip, you can't)

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
It's not that baffling honestly. Australian fans give him more of a hard time because he's looked at as Warne's main competitor and rival. Of course, there are people from other countries who've raised doubts about his action, but its not a coincidence at all that the loudest voices (even here on CW) come from Aussie fans.
Yeah it's mostly this.

I believe we tend to be more anti-chucking (perceived or otherwise) as well in general but I don't know maybe this was only after Murali came onto the scene. Also I don't think you see as many dodgy actions get through the grades in Australia as you do in other countries
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Murali was biologically a freak specimen. Kind of funny to think that a young Aussie with his bent arm, and flexible wrist would be called a chucker in youth cricket and probably exit the game
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Deep down I think Muralis great, such a meek humble bloke, it's genuinely very hard for me to dislike people like that as I am similar

But the chucking stuff is funny. 800 run outs baby, arm was as bent as a banana
 

kyear2

International Coach
Which is also reflected, more accurately, in his average. Taking into WPM into account doesn't provide any benefit
WPM just means more opportunity tbh, which is neither a benefit nor a detraction. SR is a better indicator of value, but not as important as average. As someone pointed out, I can't recall who, it's counter intuitive to say who got there faster is better, if they are getting there costing more runs. Has to be a balance, which was sometimes used by some as a disadvantage for Steyn, within an ATG context of course.

In general, I believe that wpm is a tad over rated and overall efficiency and effectiveness both end up being reflected in the average and we just end up over complicating things. It's all baked in tbh.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I'm generalising here, but no other cricketing fans seem to in unison bash Murali and intentionally under-rate him like Australia fans, it's quite perplexing. Seems to be generally well respected & regarded as a champion elsewhere.
There can be multiple reasons for this, I never night into the chucking thing, especially after he was cleared. Just thought it was an unusual and interesting action. I, probably unfairly, deducted more for the fact that his home pitches were especially prepared for him and how many minnows he faced.
But for all cricket fans, we also primarily rate players for how they did against our teams, especially before Cricinfo and the ability to watch more international games. And to be generous, he struggled mightily vs Australia. Similar to how Warne struggled immensely vs India, but then again so did Murali.

In my never ending drive to pick the perfect team, and also to my love of the sport, I watch a lot of YouTube and to be honest, I'm sure most of us can admit that of all the ATG bowlers, Shane probably bowled the most hitable balls and also got lucky with wickets from some ordinary deliveries. Be he had his moments of brilliance and didn't have the benefit of home pitches or a healthy dose of easier wickets. So likely all of that factors into the perception.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Always been a Bowling SR over a Batting SR person. Imo quick wickets, especially quick wickets in bunches can snowball a batting innings into a full-on collapse and speed your team towards victory more decisively than quick runs can.
Think they both have their merits. A quick opening partnership can quickly take the impetus and game away from the opposition. A Richards (either) could turn the tide of a match in a session in a way that a Kallis or Sutcliffe just either couldn't or were reluctant to. Bradman, Richards, Sobers all highly regarded because while they were at the crease the bowlers were not allowed to settle and we're under duress, this also had or could have a snow ball effect for the rest of the team.
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Always been a Bowling SR over a Batting SR person. Imo quick wickets, especially quick wickets in bunches can snowball a batting innings into a full-on collapse and speed your team towards victory more decisively than quick runs can.
Conversely, a higher SR bowler can also leak runs and release pressure. Help a batsman get going. Demoralise fielding team etc.

And the reverse for a higher SR batsman. Criminally misunderstood on here by cricket analysts who don't understand the practical effect successful aggressive batting can have on a game of cricket because it's not easily directly represented in numbers
 

kyear2

International Coach
Its not all of them, just the idiotic insecure and/or racist ones.
Inherent bias for those who look like us, would rather use that than racist, and definitely the prior as well, but everyone does that tbh.
Slightly pull down the other guy to make yours look a little better, I see so much of it when reading through older threads.

And it's not restricted to cricket, I'm sure there isn't much love lost between Max and Lewis but they respect each other a hell of a lot more than their fans do to each other.

With regards to the preference of persons who grade based on country of origin, there are some posters who on polls have a 100% voting record for players from their own country or players from certain eras for what ever reasons.

I'm not immune but my biggest arguments of recent have been vs Coronis over Sutcliffe. My bias if you want to call it that, is against slower scoring batsmen, which he's called me out for with regards to Sir Len and the value of slip fielding, especially vs batting deep. But even with my argument for specialist that favors McGrath more than any one else.

anyways that last bit was more of a ramble, so feel free to disregard.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Conversely, a higher SR bowler can also leak runs and release pressure. Help a batsman get going. Demoralise fielding team etc.

And the reverse for a higher SR batsman. Criminally misunderstood on here by cricket analysts who don't understand the practical effect successful aggressive batting can have on a game of cricket because it's not easily directly represented in numbers
Greenidge and Haynes, Hayden and Langer, the longer they stayed at the crease the game just slipped away, it was demoralizing. They weren't just dulling the new ball, they were taking advantage of it. 10 overs if them vs 10 overs of Lawry or Boycott, there was no comparison. One allowed the bowlers to get into rhythm and settle, the others just didn't, and took their confidence in the process. That innings by Laburchagne (yes an extreme) just tanked the momentum and the team.
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Greenidge and Haynes, Hayden and Langer, the longer they stayed at the crease the game just slipped away, it was demoralizing. They weren't just dulling the new ball, they were taking advantage of it. 10 overs if them vs 10 overs of Lawry or Boycott, there was no comparison. One allowed the bowlers to get into rhythm and settle, the others just didn't, and took their confidence in the process. That innings by Laburchagne (yes an extreme) just tanked the momentum and the team.
It doesn't even have to be 10 overs. It can even be 1 ball, I've seen it, I've done it.

Watch what can happen to a fielding team when an opening batsman hits their opening bowler for 6 over cover in the first over of a match. Heads drop, the field changes, plans go out the window.

Now a really strong and well-led fielding side can weather a bit of aggression without issue but on balance it makes a big difference
 

kyear2

International Coach
It doesn't even have to be 10 overs. It can even be 1 ball, I've seen it, I've done it.

Watch what can happen to a fielding team when an opening batsman hits their opening bowler for 6 over cover in the first over of a match. Heads drop, the field changes, plans go out the window.

Now a really strong and well-led fielding side can weather a bit of aggression without issue but on balance it makes a big difference
Just have to get Pews and Coronis on board.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
WPM just means more opportunity tbh, which is neither a benefit nor a detraction. SR is a better indicator of value, but not as important as average. As someone pointed out, I can't recall who, it's counter intuitive to say who got there faster is better, if they are getting there costing more runs. Has to be a balance, which was sometimes used by some as a disadvantage for Steyn, within an ATG context of course.

In general, I believe that wpm is a tad over rated and overall efficiency and effectiveness both end up being reflected in the average and we just end up over complicating things. It's all baked in tbh.
WPM is a lot more than just opportunity (plus strikerate). It's an additionally an expression of the ability to bowl a lot, pick up wickets when asked to bowl at a time when you are unsuited to getting wickets etc.

Waqar is a good example. Close to GOAT SR. Very far down on WPM. Lack of opportunity? Somewhat, but he took fewer WPM than guys from his era with worse SRs and less opportunity like Donald and Mcgrath. Too reliant on swing (that wasn't always there) and pace (that he could only draw on for so many overs in a game/career).
 

Adorable Asshole

International Regular
WPM is a lot more than just opportunity (plus strikerate). It's an additionally an expression of the ability to bowl a lot, pick up wickets when asked to bowl at a time when you are unsuited to getting wickets etc.

Waqar is a good example. Close to GOAT SR. Very far down on WPM. Lack of opportunity? Somewhat, but he took fewer WPM than guys from his era with worse SRs and less opportunity like Donald and Mcgrath. Too reliant on swing (that wasn't always there) and pace (that he could only draw on for so many overs in a game/career).
He was too reliant on reverse swing and pace. He struggled with the new ball a lot of times plus when his pace decreased to age and injuries he regressed rapidly.
 

kyear2

International Coach
WPM is a lot more than just opportunity (plus strikerate). It's an additionally an expression of the ability to bowl a lot, pick up wickets when asked to bowl at a time when you are unsuited to getting wickets etc.

Waqar is a good example. Close to GOAT SR. Very far down on WPM. Lack of opportunity? Somewhat, but he took fewer WPM than guys from his era with worse SRs and less opportunity like Donald and Mcgrath. Too reliant on swing (that wasn't always there) and pace (that he could only draw on for so many overs in a game/career).
I may be misunderstanding math, but you can't have a lower s/r and lower opportunities and have a higher wpm. You must be bowling more overs.

Not disagreeing with your primary point though, s/r isn't everything. But that being said, neither is wpm.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
He was too reliant on reverse swing and pace. He struggled with the new ball a lot of times plus when his pace decreased to age and injuries he regressed rapidly.
I meant swing to include conventional and pace. He still took wickets fast with conventional, even if he was not one of the great conventional bowlers.

His pace is not something his bowling style was suited to maintaining, whether in the long or short term.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
I may be misunderstanding math, but you can't have a lower s/r and lower opportunities and have a higher wpm. You must be bowling more overs.

Not disagreeing with your primary point though, s/r isn't everything. But that being said, neither is wpm.
Lower bowling SR is better SR. If you strike at 10 you get a pile of wickets even if you only have the opportunity to bowl a handful of overs per match.
 

Shady Slim

International Coach
That not how chucking works
i think that mr wasn't saying it was, just that the chud murali derogation lines are really funny to say and i agree (even though i would also never unironically impugn the bloke's record or the bloke himself)
 

Top