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England thread

Molehill

Molehill

International Captain
Spark said:
Yeah for me this doesn't feel like a structural problem at all. Sure maybe their heads aren't in the game but this side clearly has more than enough talent to make the semi-finals and obviously knows how to win a WC. This is a form and leadership issue; there isn't much wrong with the team that couldn't be fixed by confidence and replacing Buttler as captain (and maybe Mott too).

People - well, really one or two fools in the other thread - saying that this proves that England need to play in a less T20esque, aggressive style are completely deluded. Obviously this has been a horrible balls-up of a tournament but the idea that anyone saw this coming is laughable, much less that this proves that the complete shift in philosophy post-2015 was wrong and they need to go back to old-fashioned mid-00s ODI cricket.
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I presume I'm one of those fools. Just feels like we've lurched too far into the T20 format. We can't bat 50 overs, way too many early wickets in all the games.

Now that may well be some kind of form and leadership issue, but I fear it runs deeper than that and we'll be back into that 24 years of ****e again.
 
quincywagstaff

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
Spark said:
2015 was much worse than this IMO given that the margin for error there was a lot greater than it was here.
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But no one rated that England ODI lineup; it was a bit of a surprise that they didn't make the quarter-finals but not a major shock they were as inept as they were.

This is bigger in the context of expectation and talent. They're defending champions with a lot of the same players. They were highly rated pre-tournament.

This has been the worst defence of a WC ODI title since Sri Lanka 99 & Australia 92. And it could get worse from here.
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
Molehill said:
I presume I'm one of those fools. Just feels like we've lurched too far into the T20 format. We can't bat 50 overs, way too many early wickets in all the games.

Now that may well be some kind of form and leadership issue, but I fear it runs deeper than that and we'll be back into that 24 years of ****e again.
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If this had been an issue before literally last week then I would buy that it's a real problem rather than merely horrible form, but it wasn't.

I'm just not buying that Root, Buttler, Malan and Bairstow have forgotten how to tempo an ODI innings properly when they did it just fine all of last week. This sudden disintegration of a top order which for seven years has totally dominated all white ball cricket in a week just doesn't seem possible outside of just a collapse of confidence.
 
GIMH

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
quincywagstaff said:
But no one rated that England ODI lineup; it was a bit of a surprise that they didn't make the quarter-finals but not a major shock they were as inept as they were.

This is bigger in the context of expectation and talent. They're defending champions with a lot of the same players. They were highly rated pre-tournament.

This has been the worst defence of a WC ODI title since Sri Lanka 99 & Australia 92. And it could get worse from here.
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Yeah relative to expectation this is worse, if that’s the way you want to look at it.
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
quincywagstaff said:
But no one rated that England ODI lineup; it was a bit of a surprise that they didn't make the quarter-finals but not a major shock they were as inept as they were.

This is bigger in the context of expectation and talent. They're defending champions with a lot of the same players. They were highly rated pre-tournament.

This has been the worst defence of a WC ODI title since Sri Lanka 99 & Australia 92. And it could get worse from here.
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Eh I agree that it's a bigger shock and a more egregious failure but it isn't a worse performance. Not making the quarters in 2015 was terrible considering that some seriously mediocre teams made it in their place. Meanwhile this lot could come out and somehow beat us next week and no one would truly be that surprised.
 
Molehill

Molehill

International Captain
Spark said:
If this had been an issue before literally last week then I would buy that it's a real problem rather than merely horrible form, but it wasn't.

I'm just not buying that Root, Buttler, Malan and Bairstow have forgotten how to tempo an ODI innings properly when they did it just fine all of last week. This sudden disintegration of a top order which for seven years has totally dominated all white ball cricket in a week just doesn't seem possible outside of just a collapse of confidence.
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You maybe right, I kind of hope so, although it's too late now and most of them won't be around in 4 years time. Not sure Bairstow/Malan works for some reason. Roy's back spasms in September seem to have caused issues throughout the order (as happened briefly in 2019).
 
L

loterry1994

International Debutant
This failure this World Cup is definitely worse than the 2015 one. This World Cup they came in as one the favourites had a lot of proven players in the odi and t20 format and have had plenty of success coming into this World Cup the previous 5-6 years.

The 2015 side no one really gave them a hope of winning the title. And they were carrying an older team that really wasn’t suitable to modern style odi cricket. Which was going harder at the powerplay, having more variety in your bowling and loading up your batting line up.
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
Molehill said:
You maybe right, I kind of hope so, although it's too late now and most of them won't be around in 4 years time. Not sure Bairstow/Malan works for some reason. Roy's back spasms in September seem to have caused issues throughout the order (as happened briefly in 2019).
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I mean that B side you rolled out looked plenty talented and confident. I wouldn't worry too much about that.

The bowling is the deeper issue, especially in these conditions. The batting has obviously been embarrassing but it's the bowling that would have seen you struggle more at the pointy end had you got there.
 
GIMH

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Molehill said:
You maybe right, I kind of hope so, although it's too late now and most of them won't be around in 4 years time. Not sure Bairstow/Malan works for some reason. Roy's back spasms in September seem to have caused issues throughout the order (as happened briefly in 2019).
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I don’t think we need to worry medium term. The Pakistan series in the covid days and the squad picked for the Ireland series show that there’s some real depth in English white ball cricket. Longer term is a different question because young players have to play it if we want to be any good at it.
 
Molehill

Molehill

International Captain
Spark said:
I mean that B side you rolled out looked plenty talented and confident. I wouldn't worry too much about that.

The bowling is the deeper issue, especially in these conditions. The batting has obviously been embarrassing but it's the bowling that would have seen you struggle more at the pointy end had you got there.
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Agreed, and deep down we all suspected it could be an issue. Rashid looks done, but at least we have Rehan waiting to replace him.
 
wpdavid

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Inspired by the earlier discussion about the excess baggage being carried by some of the guys playing today, here is my attempt at an Overweight England Test XI since I started watching the game in 1971. Some of them (e.g. Botham and Robinson) haven't always been carrying too many kilos when playing test cricket for their country, but sometimes they have.
1. Jameson
2. Key
3. Cowdrey, Colin
4. Gatting
5. Bairstow, J.
6. Botham (mk. 2)
7. Bairstow, D. (wk)
8. Patel, S.
9. Hemmings
10. Robinson
11. Munton
 
Molehill

Molehill

International Captain
Niall said:
Yeah smacking around some abysmal Ireland trundlers doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
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To be fair, Josh Little bowled 5 overs for 69 in one of those and 10 overs for 82 in another. He's not your average Irish trundler.
 
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