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Keith Miller vs Vivian Richards

Who's the better cricketer?


  • Total voters
    35

BazBall21

International Captain
If he was a very good batsman, why are his numbers so average. And don’t bring up FC cricket because then Gareme Hick would be in this discussion.
Miller averaged 40 below no4 with a bowling workload. Did not play in a batting era. Has destructive upsides and averages nearly 50 in first-class cricket. Very good. Play him as a batsman specialist in the 60s or the 2000s and he's averaging 45 no problem. Graeme Hick is a nonsense comparison. Miller had a vastly more accomplished test batting career than that flat track bully so Miller's first-class record serves as more evidence of his quality.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
I'm not trying to disrespect the legend, but Carl Hooper wasn't a very good batsman.

Keith Miller was a great player, an amazing player. He was one half of one of the greatest opening partnerships of all time. But he wasn't a number one, he wasn't even a clear cut ATG fast bowler and an average to above average middle order batsman. How the hell does that equal to a top 10, far less top 5 player of all time. At highest he's a top 20ish bowler? I know the site's fascination with all rounders, but this is a bridge too far.
The gap between Kallis' batting and Miller's bowling is clearly smaller than the gap between Miller's batting and Kallis' bowling.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
I thought Lillee epitomizes the Australian masculine ideal? Don’t wanna sound rude but wasn't Miller too refined and posh for Australian taste?
I've seen it suggested before that Miller was the 007 of cricket despite being an Aussie. Perhaps he was closer to the English masculinity ideal than the Australian masculinity ideal. Played as more of a cavalier than the archetypal English cricketer though. Lillee is unequivocally, intensely, Australian.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
This site loves the niche argument and Kieth Miller as a top 10 cricketer is the ultimate niche argument. Literally no one who analyses the sport for a living has thought this,
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Miller averaged 40 below no4 with a bowling workload. Did not play in a batting era. Has destructive upsides and averages nearly 50 in first-class cricket. Very good. Play him as a batsman specialist in the 60s or the 2000s and he's averaging 45 no problem. Graeme Hick is a nonsense comparison. Miller had a vastly more accomplished test batting career than that flat track bully so Miller's first-class record serves as more evidence of his quality.
A bit selective, what about when he was batting above 4?

Also pointless looking at him as a specialist, he wasn’t and a 45 averaging specialist in the 2000s was Ian Bell so not that valuable
 

BazBall21

International Captain
Using the ratings of journalists is very problematic. People only do it when it's convenient to them which is never going to be every time.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
A bit selective, what about when he was batting above 4?

Also pointless looking at him as a specialist, he wasn’t and a 45 averaging specialist in the 2000s was Ian Bell so not that valuable
Not selective. Thinking a pace-bowling all-rounder should bat 5/6 for workload purposes alone is hardly radical.
 

Adorable Asshole

International Regular
A bit selective, what about when he was batting above 4?

Also pointless looking at him as a specialist, he wasn’t and a 45 averaging specialist in the 2000s was Ian Bell so not that valuable
45 average specialist in 2000s would average below 40 in 1950s.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
This site loves the niche argument and Kieth Miller as a top 10 cricketer is the ultimate niche argument. Literally no one who analyses the sport for a living has thought this,
For what it's worth, Miller came 13th in the ESPN top 50 cricketers of all time, so it's pretty certain some journalists did rate him in their top ten.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Using the ratings of journalists is very problematic. People only do it when it's convenient to them which is never going to be every time.
In the absence of advanced comparative statistical analysis that doesn’t exist in cricket relative to other sports, you are dealing with conjecture (this site) and peer / pundit analysis (journalists).

The journalists obviously have their biases but it’s directional. Nowhere is Miller close to the top 10 (he’s 16 in CMJ which I don’t agree with but can buy)
 

BazBall21

International Captain
In the absence of advanced comparative statistical analysis that doesn’t exist in cricket relative to other sports, you are dealing with conjecture (this site) and peer / pundit analysis (journalists).

The journalists obviously have their biases but it’s directional. Nowhere is Miller close to the top 10 (he’s 16 in CMJ which I don’t agree with but can buy)
13th in ESPN's top 50 of all time. That is close to top ten. CMJ also rated Alec Bedser ahead of Wasim Akram and Curtly Ambrose. Cricket writers agreeing with you doesn't necessarily mean you're correct.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
[
13th in ESPN's top 50 of all time. That is close to top ten. CMJ also rated Alec Bedser ahead of Wasim Akram and Curtly Ambrose. Cricket writers agreeing with you doesn't necessarily mean you're correct.
Fair enough, didn’t see the ESPN list although looking at it it was 2001 and Richards was 3 and Tendulkar 7.

My point is that Miller over Richards or Tendulkar (or Warne or Mcgrath) is a niche view unique to this site. The fact that some people here can’t see that shows the blinders that some people haveZ
 

Adorable Asshole

International Regular
[

Fair enough, didn’t see the ESPN list although looking at it it was 2001 and Richards was 3 and Tendulkar 7.

My point is that Miller over Richards or Tendulkar (or Warne or Mcgrath) is a niche view unique to this site. The fact that some people here can’t see that shows the blinders that some people haveZ
He was rated ahead of Marshall and Lara.
 

Qlder

International Debutant
My point is that Miller over Richards or Tendulkar (or Warne or Mcgrath) is a niche view unique to this site. The fact that some people here can’t see that shows the blinders that some people haveZ
Or the blinders that you have on?
 

kyear2

International Coach
Miller averaged 40 below no4 with a bowling workload. Did not play in a batting era. Has destructive upsides and averages nearly 50 in first-class cricket. Very good. Play him as a batsman specialist in the 60s or the 2000s and he's averaging 45 no problem. Graeme Hick is a nonsense comparison. Miller had a vastly more accomplished test batting career than that flat track bully so Miller's first-class record serves as more evidence of his quality.
Choosing which position to use is cherry picking. And the only country he averaged even close to 45 in was the WI, where he scored half his test hundreds in that one series and where everyone castigates Weekes and Walcott for being flat track bullies. He averaged 73 in the Caribbean and 24 in England
 

BazBall21

International Captain
Choosing which position to use is cherry picking. And the only country he averaged even close to 45 in was the WI, where he scored half his test hundreds in that one series and where everyone castigates Weekes and Walcott for being flat track bullies. He averaged 73 in the Caribbean and 24 in England
It's not cherry picking sir. I don't expect an all-rounder (who is an elite bowler) to be a gun top 4 batsman on workload grounds alone. Letterlone the fact a profile like that can still be near-incomparably valuable doing what he did in the middle order so isolating his average of 40 batting below no4 is totally fair.

Miller going big in that WI series just adds weight to my argument that he would average 45 in the sixties or the 2000s. His batting average is de-flattered by the era he played in. The runs-per-wicket in his tests is very low for what it's worth. There's nothing to suggest he got good batting conditions by and large. I think considering this context and his bowling workload, an average of 37 is good; and also very valuable.
 
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BazBall21

International Captain
The England series in 1956 was monstrously tough conditions. He also averaged close to 45 in SA where he additionally dominated with the ball.
 

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