Semi Finals

[RossTaylorsBox]

Surely if he's yelled it out as a slur some other player has heard it as well.

 

[Dendarii]

Curry of course is at no fault either to report what he thought was a slur.

Yeah, Curry's not at fault here and anyone who claims that he made it up is talking nonsense. There's no way he wouldn't have brought it to the ref's attention if he didn't think it was a racial slur. The question is whether it was actually one or whether it was something which sounded like one to him, and I doubt we'll ever have conclusive evidence.

 

[Molehill]

I'm making zero excuses, if he has used a racial slur, then yeah, write him up. However, the consideration that he's communicating to his team can't be discounted - if the translation is blind side, or white side or whatever, it's feasible. It's not the total straw man excuse that you keep claiming it is.

In playing the game for 20 or so years I've heard it call short side, open side, blind side, wide side, tight side, Green/Blue/Red/Grey side (when operating a sectional name system, which was frankly stupid). There are many ways that many things on the pitch are called in English, so i'm sure there are also in other languages.

Watching/listening to that footage, the nearest I can make out is he yells it as the kick is about to go to the corner, which given the translation and context, would seem to make more sense it's a directional instruction to his own team rather than a directed slur at Curry.

Curry of course is at no fault either to report what he thought was a slur.

Maybe, it's a molehill being made out of an anthill?

Or maybe, Bongi is just a racist prick who somehow became the (vice) captain of his country that has a bit of background with this kind of stuff.

To be honest, my issue has been more the attempts to clear Bongi's name and cast accusations at Curry when literally no one knows what happened. If it was the other way round, I severely doubt you'd have any English saying "oh he's misheard bland nut, black out, block cut" etc etc. And the suggestion that he did it to embarrass Bongi is frightening. Having to make a racist accusation is not exactly something anyone would take lightly and I suspect Curry wouldn't have felt comfortable having to do so, the fact he asked what he should do suggests as much. You can actually see him pondering what to do before he walks up to the ref.

It's also worth noting that Curry has played a significant amount of rugby with S African players at Sale, not like he's not used to hearing the accent or terminology.

 

[StephenZA]

What I want to know is the circumstances.... either at the bottom of a ruck, or in a direct interaction Bongi said something to Curry. And that would be appalling and should be fully condemned.

If the circumstance is, as has been contested, that Bongi shouted out loud to his team, while getting up from a ruck or defending, then that circumstance is totally different. And at that stage my opinion is that Curry deliberately misconstrued it, to go to the ref and create controversy, not like this would have been the one and only time a SA has shouted this out in a game.

This is why I want it investigated, because either way it should be fully condemned. If Bongi has been caught using a racial slur, he should go home and lose his place in the team. If Curry is saying what half the players on the field heard was a racial slur... then I think it was poor gamesmanship and should also be fully condemned.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Here's footage of the incident with audio.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/17eocim

I can't make out what's being said, but comments claim that it's "wit kant" or "wyd kant", which would be "white side" or "wide side". Those make sense in the context of the ball coming out of the ruck, but there's just no way to be certain based on that clip.

From that it really doesn't sound like he's yelling abuse at someone, rather barking an order to defend.

It might boil down to what standard of proof the authorities apply. If it's "beyond a reasonable doubt" then there's no way Mbonambi will be found guilty, and, for me, even on the balance of probabilities I'd be inclined to acquit, but it's a closer call.

The doubt that won't quite stop nagging is Mbonambi's lack of a denial. Or one that I've heard, anyway. It's possible the lawyers (one assumes they've been consulted at least) have instructed him to say nowt, but, given the gravity of the accusation, one would surely be very keen to distance oneself from it ASAP.

 

[Uppercut]

What I want to know is the circumstances.... either at the bottom of a ruck, or in a direct interaction Bongi said something to Curry. And that would be appalling and should be fully condemned.

If the circumstance is, as has been contested, that Bongi shouted out loud to his team, while getting up from a ruck or defending, then that circumstance is totally different. And at that stage my opinion is that Curry deliberately misconstrued it, to go to the ref and create controversy, not like this would have been the one and only time a SA has shouted this out in a game.

This is why I want it investigated, because either way it should be fully condemned. If Bongi has been caught using a racial slur, he should go home and lose his place in the team. If Curry is saying what half the players on the field heard was a racial slur... then I think it was poor gamesmanship and should also be fully condemned.

There's absolutely no way Curry deliberately misconstrued it. It's very weird of you to even think that tbh.

 

[StephenZA]

There's absolutely no way Curry deliberately misconstrued it. It's very weird of you to even think that tbh.

Why because he is a stand up guy? Would never do something like that? We SAs say that about Bongi. Is it possible it was purely just misinterpretation in the moment. Maybe. But then he must have somehow believed that Bongi directly targeted him, not anybody else. Why? As already pointed out, he plays with other SA's... its becomes this oops I`m sorry, for misunderstanding and accusing the black VC of racist language. I find it very convenient if it was all a 'misunderstanding'.

For my mind either Bongi did do it, or else Curry decided it was another way to get underneath the SA teams skin. I`m not a fan of the oops happenstance misunderstanding afterwards.

 

[Molehill]

For my mind either Bongi did do it, or else Curry decided it was another way to get underneath the SA teams skin. I`m not a fan of the oops happenstance misunderstanding afterwards.

I'm sorry but this is just rubbish. Accusing someone of racism to get underneath their skin? Maybe that's a strategy you might consider but no one else would.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Think you guys need to use Occam's Razor here.

 

[StephenZA]

Think you guys need to use Occam's Razor here.

That would be Bongi did it.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Think you guys need to use Occam's Razor here.

@Shady Slim - what do you reckon?

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Nah, that would be a simple misunderstanding imo.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

@Shady Slim - what do you reckon?

He's just got done figuring out what a motte and bailey is, let's not pile on too many new concepts.

 

[Uppercut]

Why because he is a stand up guy? Would never do something like that? We SAs say that about Bongi. Is it possible it was purely just misinterpretation in the moment. Maybe. But then he must have somehow believed that Bongi directly targeted him, not anybody else. Why? As already pointed out, he plays with other SA's... its becomes this oops I`m sorry, for misunderstanding and accusing the black VC of racist language. I find it very convenient if it was all a 'misunderstanding'.

For my mind either Bongi did do it, or else Curry decided it was another way to get underneath the SA teams skin. I`m not a fan of the oops happenstance misunderstanding afterwards.

Mate, people generally just don't do that kind of thing. Maybe there's one sociopathic oddball in a million who would even think about it. Being so quick to attribute a pretty basic misunderstanding to malice suggests that you have some sub-medical level of paranoia going on.

 

[StephenZA]

Nah, that would be a simple misunderstanding imo.

I think that takes many more assumptions.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Guy mishearing a word in a language he isn't a native speaker of in a super noisy environment isn't a big stretch.

 

[StephenZA]

Guy mishearing a word in a language he isn't a native speaker of in a super noisy environment isn't a big stretch.

Not its not, but still takes more assumptions. And he must have believed it enough and felt it directed enough at him to go to the ref and ask the question. That takes lots of assumptions on a misunderstanding.

Mate, people generally just don't do that kind of thing. Maybe there's one sociopathic oddball in a million who would even think about it. Being so quick to attribute a pretty basic misunderstanding to malice suggests that you have some sub-medical level of paranoia going on.

Maybe it is my bias.... I come from a world where racism and accusations thereof is used as a tool all the time to get what you want. So it not something for me that requires some sort of sociopathy, it is a literal tactic. And maybe that is unfair on Curry for me to project that world on him.

But for him to accuse Bongi like he did, if Bongi is innocent, due to an apparent misunderstanding, is at best reckless.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Guy mishearing a word in a language he isn't a native speaker of in a super noisy environment isn't a big stretch.

True, but the simplest explanation is that Mbonambi actually said it though.

I mean, I'm no linguist but even if he said it in Afrikaans ("wit kont", if Google is to be believed), Curry would likely have understood the gist.

That's not to say that he did say it, in fact the audio probably suggests otherwise, but it is where Billy O's famous dictum would take us.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Eh kinda disagree with that, each scenario takes two assumptions, what Bongi said (different) and what Curry heard (the same).

 

[Tom Flint]

Not its not, but still takes more assumptions. And he must have believed it enough and felt it directed enough at him to go to the ref and ask the question. That takes lots of assumptions on a misunderstanding.

Maybe it is my bias.... I come from a world where racism and accusations thereof is used as a tool all the time to get what you want. So it not something for me that requires some sort of sociopathy, it is a literal tactic. And maybe that is unfair on Curry for me to project that world on him.

But for him to accuse Bongi like he did, if Bongi is innocent, due to an apparent misunderstanding, is at best reckless.

If it was the other way round I doubt anyone would be calling bongi reckless for reporting something he thought he heard. In fact if someone did accuse him of recklessness they would be vilified and probably banned from this forum!